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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

ironmanDX said:

Wtf. This guy has to be trolling.

Yeah, that’s my take too.



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Putin had planned this attack for years. Russian outposts in the north-east, he annexed Crimea in 2014 and Chechnya conflicts and Georgia conflicts.

The world did not expect bad little man from Moscow to invade Ukraine. Bad Putin. Poor Ukraine.



Modernise military for inevitable military conflicts in the future. Huge boost in military spending, upgrading capabilities of military. Increase military size and impose military conscription.



Phoenix, if there is ww3 and it goes nuclear... You won't rise from the ashes.

I'm in Australia. In Melbourne in fact. The nuclear winter will suck but it's one of the safest cities in the world should a war that you won't survive, should happen. Google it if you want,then stop wishing death upon millions for your amusement.



ironmanDX said:

Phoenix, if there is ww3 and it goes nuclear... You won't rise from the ashes.

I'm in Australia. In Melbourne in fact. The nuclear winter will suck but it's one of the safest cities in the world should a war that you won't survive, should happen. Google it if you want,then stop wishing death upon millions for your amusement.

Whether you are coming from a historic perspective (war has been going on since recorded history began) or one of many religion's backgrounds, war will, sadly, continue. Take Christianity, for example, the Bible states on numerous occasions that war will continue even in the end of days. Even hearing about wars and rumors of wars is talked about.

There are currently at least 23 nations at war, civil war, or fighting extremists within their own borders (I added two for Russia and Ukraine).

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-currently-at-war

Regarding Nuclear War, I really doubt Putin would follow up on his threat to launch nukes for numerous reasons:

1) His military aresenal of nukes has a lot of old-Soviet era technology, which won't be as reliable now. He's also lost a LOT more military equipement than he expected during this entire Ukrainian conflict and the sanctions have already started impacting production of more military equipement, especially on the semi-conductor front.

2) Unless he can greatly enhance hypersonic missiles to attach nukes to them, and do that to numerous missiles throughout Russia, almost all of his nukes will get shot down before they land somewhere. I'd imagine only really close places to the launch sites would have even a chance of getting hit by one (which would be absolutely catastrophic for those people and people everywhere, no doubt about it).

3) The Russians have been doing terrible against a minor European power. Absolutely no disrespect to the Ukrainians, but they have not been a historic or modern military power of Europe, let alone the world, and yet they are going toe to toe with Russia in this war. The oligarchy of Russia was okay with minor economic headaches in the short term, are clearly very frazzled by long-term, major economic headaches, and that's just with Ukraine. No way the oligarchy allows Putin to do this on a global scale no matter how much he saber rattles, knowing how much wealth they have lost just in the last 10 days against one nation.

4) The way I see it, people do what Putin has done for three reasons. Of those, two of them would suggest Putin wouldn't want to go nuclear:

4a) Religion - If he is religious of any kind, it is probably some loose form of Eastern Orthodoxy. As a Christian, how people can know you are a true believer in Christ, someone who has walked the Roman Road (admitted they are a sinner, that there is no way they can save themselves, that only God can save us, and HE did so by sending his Son Jesus Christ to take our place on the cross to pay for the punishment owed to us, and then HE rose again after dying, and now offers that same gift of life, freely, where there is no more death, or pain, or hunger, or thirst, or sin), is by their fruit. How are they loving others, how are they blessing others, how are they helping the needy, how are they praying fervantly for people, the list goes on. We can never truly know someone's hearts as humans, but we can see their fruit. I hope and pray Putin will turn away from this madness and embrace Christ, but what he is displaying is not fruitful. Regardless, if he feels he is religious, then he has some understanding that there is something after this life, and I'd imagine basically all religions and their texts would speak out against mass murder of women and children in some of the most inhumane ways possible by biological and nuclear warfare (especailly the people that don't go in an instant, but rather slowly and horribly). TLDR: If he is religious, even a little, he won't go nuclear, unless by some ridiculously small chance he adheres to a religion, that isn't found in Russia, that finds that acceptable or good.

4b) Historic - If he isn't, even remotely, impacted by religion, then he could be influenced by this category. How will he be remembered? As a respected, honored world leader like Alexander the Great, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, Queen Elizabeth the 1st, etc. Or is he okay with being in company with Nero or the Kim dynasty of North Korea? If he is doing this to spread Russia's power and build his legacy, he won't go nuclear, because it would ruin other nationssome and Russia a whole lot more, cursing him for all of history to be a joke, at best, and vehemently hated, at worst.

4c) Insanity - There are reports and indications by U.S. intelligence that can't go into too specific of information, but they are saying they are being used as reasoning Putin may have some kind of mental thing going on. Whether it's like what King George III had or something minor, who knows, but analysts and experts on facial expressions/body language say there are signs here. If he is insane, or at least partially mentally being influenced to do illogical things, then there is no telling on what he will do and who, even within Russia's oligarchy, he wouldn't care about axing just to keep this conquest going. This is the worst case scenario because that throws out a lot, if not all, of possible logical, historic, or religious influence.



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drkohler said:
SecondWar said:

What do you think will happen should they surrender?

Well, Putin's plan is pretty obvious, but nobody dares to print it in the papers. What he least wants is a surrender at this time.

Currently it is estimated that 1.5 to 2 mio Ukranians will flee or have fled the country. More will do in the next days so the end result will be:

a) These people are not coming back, ever, on their own.

b) Putin will send Russians to fill the empty spaces so he has at least a good minority number of Russians in the cities. Like the Dombass region he can then claim Russia has to protect those people. A "public vote" will then turn the Ukraine into a Russian province.

Hmm, its pretty hard to by that Putin actually want this war to continue and did not instead believe that it would be done and over within within days.  Could you elaborate on this point.  If the reports that have been coming in are true, its highly doubtful you would be running out of supplies and resources if you expected to be within a longer contracted war.  I also do not believe you understand the situation correctly.  Yes, people are going to flee but once occupation takes place you will then need to deal with a constant surge of fighters running guerrilla warfare.  Taking the country was suppose to be the easy part, keeping it is with a long contracted war is something totally different especially if your military is going to be stretched.

Putin needed this to end quick and have that surrender on paper and then craft the message to the world that he is a hero alleviating Urkraine from the evil Nazi menace.  The longer the war goes on, all message gets muddier and muddier and his stance and the Russia nation crumbles trying to hold up that BS talking point.



Machiavellian said:

Hmm, its pretty hard to by that Putin actually want this war to continue and did not instead believe that it would be done and over within within days.  Could you elaborate on this point. 

I'd guess (and that is the only thing one can do, noone can look into the brain of Putin) that Putin was sure he'd win the war withîn days, even using "unprofessional" troups and equipment. Just sheer numbers. Now his generals had the same problem as the German generals had in ww2. They had a militarily incompentent leader, and contradicting him would mean instant firing squad. So the Russian generals followed orders and failed miserably (probably they knew that right from the start). No Russian generals or battlefield commanders have been made to disappear, so the blame game hasn't even started in Moscow, which tells us Putin still has full control.

Now Putin (he's not dumbat all) uses the second method, terror against the population. There is no question time will wear down the Ukranian army and population, and more and more people will flee. If anyone thinks those Ukranians left behind are all heroes and will go into a taliban-style warfare, no, that is not going to happen. And suppressing whole nations is pretty much a hobby of the Russian rulers. Simply and steadily destroying the Ukranian infrastructure reduces own losses and basically empties the attacked country over time.

Unless a coup happens in Moscow (and it isn't clear what would happen after that), Putin can destroy the Ukrania with whatever methods he wishes. Sad but factual.

The only counter argument to impress Putin is brutal force. There are ways to do that. None are nice.

Economical warfare? Putin doesn't bother for a few Russian bank being shut down. He has connections to over 40 African banks that do his trades. And there are too many countries that are deppendent on Russian wheat and gas/oil..

Last edited by drkohler - on 06 March 2022

drkohler said:

Now Putin (he's not dumbat all) uses the second method, terror against the population. There is no question time will wear down the Ukranian army and population, and more and more people will flee. If anyone thinks those Ukranians left behind are all heroes and will go into a taliban-style warfare, no, that is not going to happen. And suppressing whole nations is pretty much a hobby of the Russian rulers. Simply and steadily destroying the Ukranian infrastructure reduces own losses and basically empties the attacked country over time.

Unless a coup happens in Moscow (and it isn't clear what would happen after that), Putin can destroy the Ukrania with whatever methods he wishes. Sad but factual.

The only counter argument to impress Putin is brutal force. There are ways to do that. None are nice.

Economical warfare? Putin doesn't bother for a few Russian bank being shut down. He has connections to over 40 African banks that do his trades. And there are too many countries that are deppendent on Russian wheat and gas/oil..

Surpressing a nation the size of Ukraine is a lot to chew for anybody. And it most certainly isn't a hobby for Russia. Putin has never seen a war on this scale, he's been bullying small nations or rebel/terrorists forces, not always with great success either.

Ukraine has over 40 million people. You don't need everyone to stay, hell you couldn't even arm everyone, to go guerrilla warface or keep fighting. Russia will need plenty more boots to occupy Ukraine and it'll be costly. Even then they might not succeed and time is not on their side either.

And at this moment Putin is not in position to destroy Ukraine whatever methods he wishes. Mariupol perhaps, but I don't think anything else is logistically possible right now tactical nukes excluded but I doubt it. 

Funny you say Putin isn't dumb (I agree he isn't) and then say Putin thinks African banks are going to save his ass :D nah, Russia's agriculture has been dependant on imports, so is their industry. Global businesses are leaving. Economy crashing, army and people need to get fed and paid. If Ukraine won't be able to farm land it'll mean less wheat for Russia too you know.. Time is not on Putin's side and the longer this goes on, the longer it'll take for Russia to climb back up.

I don't know why some people suggest these sanctions are useless or that Putin saw them coming. FFS even the West didn't see them coming!



KiigelHeart said:

Surpressing a nation the size of Ukraine is a lot to chew for anybody. as never seen a war on this scale, he's been bullying small nations or rebel/terrorists forces, not always with great success either.

Funny you say Putin isn't dumb (I agree he isn't) and then say Putin thinks African banks are going to save his ass :D nah, Russia's agriculture has been dependant on imports, so is their industry.

a) You forget there is a sizable Russian minority in the Ukraine.

b) Obviously you have no clue. Google "Largest wheat exporter" and you will wake up.

c) The African banks (and their nations) are either dependent on Russia or China. Once again, Putin has planned a lot of things for a lot of time. Yes - the Russians will suffer from the blockades, no question about that. The Oligarchs (more precisely: the Kleptokrats) wil suffer too. Putin? He is too clever for that.



drkohler said:
KiigelHeart said:

Surpressing a nation the size of Ukraine is a lot to chew for anybody. as never seen a war on this scale, he's been bullying small nations or rebel/terrorists forces, not always with great success either.

Funny you say Putin isn't dumb (I agree he isn't) and then say Putin thinks African banks are going to save his ass :D nah, Russia's agriculture has been dependant on imports, so is their industry.

a) You forget there is a sizable Russian minority in the Ukraine.

b) Obviously you have no clue. Google "Largest wheat exporter" and you will wake up.

c) The African banks (and their nations) are either dependent on Russia or China. Once again, Putin has planned a lot of things for a lot of time. Yes - the Russians will suffer from the blockades, no question about that. The Oligarchs (more precisely: the Kleptokrats) wil suffer too. Putin? He is too clever for that.

Russian minority is around 20% but majority live in Crimea. This doesn't change what I said, there's a great number of Ukrainian people. And let's not assume every Russian in Ukrane supports what Putin is doing.

Russia imports  a lot of food stuff and raw material needed in agriculture, seeds etc. Don't know why wheat is now your end game. EU is another top exporter of wheat anyway and it has been increasing.

I won't even bother with the last part lol you have a very Russian way of seeing their leader as all-knowing and infallible. Hopefully Putin's jig is up soon in the eyes of people.