@k216: sounds good enough to me. I think the overall message for me was: per unit revenue for publishers/ developers is less than i thought....

Kasz216 said: Just_Ben said: Well it sounds about right. The game cost 47€ at retail, calculation out tax you would have 39,49€ witch means 10€ for the shops. I would say thats in the normal margin, its 33%. I don't think you know how much is normal in electronics: 50% (Yes, 50% on TVs and such stuff) There is a 50% VAT on electronics? Isn't the VAT uniformly applied along the distribution line however?

 No thats the cut of the shop. Any your VAT on VAT doesn't work. Only consumer have to pay VAT.

Faxanadu said: Kasz216 said: Lets see if i've got this right too.... every game brought in would be charged the Aquisition VAT opon entering the county and the output VAT between store and consumer. The buisness to buisness VAT may or may not be collected depending on if they publisher was in the same country as the aquirer. So was this publisher also in germany fax? Either way, pre-vat that'd mean the publisher would be actually clearing 24 euros post VAT for aquisition fee. So 24 euros slit between the publisher and developer. Yeah i'd agree with your less then 10 euros idea based on this... by a lot when you consider wholesale purchases. What is scary however is this is Nintendo's publisher... a guy who doesn't incure most of the prices your average publisher does as Nintendo pays for it's own advertising. If this were a 3rd party game the publisher would probably take a bigger piece of the cake.   Any way your friend can inqure about the price of a 360 or PS3 game? VAT is usually charged through to the consumer...meaning any kind of VAT can be reimbursed (as far as I know) However, the 30 Euros was without VAT. How it is handled for imports I do not know.

So your friend payed 35,7€ for the game? Maybe i can clarify when the VAT is payed: By a rule, it's payed every time product is sold, like this: publisher->importer->retailer->consumer. Or in case where the product is sold in a country where it's imported/manufactured publisher->retailer->consumer. Basically you can sell product in the same country the product has been imported/manufactured, without having to pay VAT before the product is sold to consumer, but at the moment i can't recall was there any certain terms required to be fulfilled. And another rule is, that every time the product is sold to a different country, you need to pay the VAT, with exception, that you can sell the product to an instance, which isn't the end consumer, when the whole VAT is payed to the country of origin. Since in Nintendo products, Germany is the country of origin with 19% VAT, it's more profitable to pay the VAT straight to Germany in countries that have higher VAT, and in countries that have lower VAT, you need to pay the tax when the product is sold to a different country. I need to check how it specifically went when i have the time, but it was pretty close how i described it.

I couldn't find, in english, nothing but PDF about the subject, which i can't read with my mobile, so i can't tell what it says.
http://www.vero.fi/default.asp?language=ENG&domain=VERO_ENGLISH
Just browse downwards until find link "introduction to VAT".

bdbdbd said: Faxanadu said: Kasz216 said: Lets see if i've got this right too.... every game brought in would be charged the Aquisition VAT opon entering the county and the output VAT between store and consumer. The buisness to buisness VAT may or may not be collected depending on if they publisher was in the same country as the aquirer. So was this publisher also in germany fax? Either way, pre-vat that'd mean the publisher would be actually clearing 24 euros post VAT for aquisition fee. So 24 euros slit between the publisher and developer. Yeah i'd agree with your less then 10 euros idea based on this... by a lot when you consider wholesale purchases. What is scary however is this is Nintendo's publisher... a guy who doesn't incure most of the prices your average publisher does as Nintendo pays for it's own advertising. If this were a 3rd party game the publisher would probably take a bigger piece of the cake.   Any way your friend can inqure about the price of a 360 or PS3 game? VAT is usually charged through to the consumer...meaning any kind of VAT can be reimbursed (as far as I know) However, the 30 Euros was without VAT. How it is handled for imports I do not know.   So your friend payed 35,7€ for the game? Maybe i can clarify when the VAT is payed: By a rule, it's payed every time product is sold, like this: publisher->importer->retailer->consumer. Or in case where the product is sold in a country where it's imported/manufactured publisher->retailer->consumer. Basically you can sell product in the same country the product has been imported/manufactured, without having to pay VAT before the product is sold to consumer, but at the moment i can't recall was there any certain terms required to be fulfilled. And another rule is, that every time the product is sold to a different country, you need to pay the VAT, with exception, that you can sell the product to an instance, which isn't the end consumer, when the whole VAT is payed to the country of origin. Since in Nintendo products, Germany is the country of origin with 19% VAT, it's more profitable to pay the VAT straight to Germany in countries that have higher VAT, and in countries that have lower VAT, you need to pay the tax when the product is sold to a different country. I need to check how it specifically went when i have the time, but it was pretty close how i described it.

 Exactly. just didnt want to make it more complicated as it was. last in line pays the VAT...

Well, by not incorporating VAT in the purchase price and then comparing it to a retail price including VAT you get a lot bigger gain for the retailer Faxanadu. I think the € 10 Just_Ben mentioned earlier in this thread will be pretty close to the profit for of the retailer.

koffieboon said: Well, by not incorporating VAT in the purchase price and then comparing it to a retail price including VAT you get a lot bigger gain for the retailer Faxanadu. I think the € 10 Just_Ben mentioned earlier in this thread will be pretty close to the profit for of the retailer.

 yeas I realized. I think they will have about 10-15 € of margin, since like I said the big retailers will get additional cuts.

This leaves the 25 Euros which have to be divided between publisher, developer and logistics. No idea how that splits up though.

 

Anyone knows whether publishers and developers have a fixed price contract or a variable contract? 

And still , retailers hold the power , mainly because 90% of gamers want their purchased software in a physical format . Downloadable games will benefit for developers , but will retailers carry consoles if they cant make as much profit on them as they do now ? Will the arrivel of DL games bring the death of consoles . Will my prediction of handhelds taking over console become true ? Well , we will find it out in a couple of years :P

hunter_alien said: And still , retailers hold the power , mainly because 90% of gamers want their purchased software in a physical format . Downloadable games will benefit for developers , but will retailers carry consoles if they cant make as much profit on them as they do now ? Will the arrivel of DL games bring the death of consoles . Will my prediction of handhelds taking over console become true ? Well , we will find it out in a couple of years :P

look at the charts. they already have taken over... 

Faxanadu said: bdbdbd said: Faxanadu said: Kasz216 said: Lets see if i've got this right too.... every game brought in would be charged the Aquisition VAT opon entering the county and the output VAT between store and consumer. The buisness to buisness VAT may or may not be collected depending on if they publisher was in the same country as the aquirer. So was this publisher also in germany fax? Either way, pre-vat that'd mean the publisher would be actually clearing 24 euros post VAT for aquisition fee. So 24 euros slit between the publisher and developer. Yeah i'd agree with your less then 10 euros idea based on this... by a lot when you consider wholesale purchases. What is scary however is this is Nintendo's publisher... a guy who doesn't incure most of the prices your average publisher does as Nintendo pays for it's own advertising. If this were a 3rd party game the publisher would probably take a bigger piece of the cake.   Any way your friend can inqure about the price of a 360 or PS3 game? VAT is usually charged through to the consumer...meaning any kind of VAT can be reimbursed (as far as I know) However, the 30 Euros was without VAT. How it is handled for imports I do not know.   So your friend payed 35,7€ for the game? Maybe i can clarify when the VAT is payed: By a rule, it's payed every time product is sold, like this: publisher->importer->retailer->consumer. Or in case where the product is sold in a country where it's imported/manufactured publisher->retailer->consumer. Basically you can sell product in the same country the product has been imported/manufactured, without having to pay VAT before the product is sold to consumer, but at the moment i can't recall was there any certain terms required to be fulfilled. And another rule is, that every time the product is sold to a different country, you need to pay the VAT, with exception, that you can sell the product to an instance, which isn't the end consumer, when the whole VAT is payed to the country of origin. Since in Nintendo products, Germany is the country of origin with 19% VAT, it's more profitable to pay the VAT straight to Germany in countries that have higher VAT, and in countries that have lower VAT, you need to pay the tax when the product is sold to a different country. I need to check how it specifically went when i have the time, but it was pretty close how i described it. Exactly. just didnt want to make it more complicated as it was. last in line pays the VAT...

 Ahhhh.  Ok, that explains it.  I was under the line of thought that it was paid at every level so it was more able to avoid tax evasion.  So the VAT isn't that different from a sales tax then?