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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony VR Round 2

Tagged games:

 

Should Sony create VR games that also work without VR?

Yes 4 16.67%
 
No 16 66.67%
 
Sony should give up on VR 4 16.67%
 
What's VR?! 0 0%
 
Total:24

Peh said:

We got WiGig (60Ghz) for the Vive Family for Wireless PC VR. That is based on the Wi-fi Network protocol. But works only for a few meters and still does not reach the bandwidth of a cable. AFAIK, HTC is still the only one who is doing that. 

802.11 AY will be available soon (IEEE revcom voting on final approval this Friday and then official publication of standard usually ~2 months after final approval) which improve the bandwidth per stream from 11 Gbit on 802.11AD (WiGig just another name for 802.11AD standard) to 44Gbit on 802.11AY.  It still not going to have as good latency as a wired connection but at least the theoretical bandwidth is close to HDMI 2.1 levels.

Distance will also be improved to a level that if there line of sight it wont be a issue.  It still not going to be able to go through walls well but as long as there line of sight it should be fine.

On average about a year from publication to product in most cases for IEEE standards (Main home Wifi like 802.11AX,AC etc is an exception to this rule as products usually release when the standard still in draft form.  802.11AX routers been available for over a year and it only got revcom approval in February of this year and not even publish yet but expected to be in April).

So it not that unreasonable to believe that in second half of 2022 we start seeing VR headset that actually a decent experience connecting to a computer/console wirelessly.



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Cyran said:

Peh said:

We got WiGig (60Ghz) for the Vive Family for Wireless PC VR. That is based on the Wi-fi Network protocol. But works only for a few meters and still does not reach the bandwidth of a cable. AFAIK, HTC is still the only one who is doing that. 

802.11 AY will be available soon (IEEE revcom voting on final approval this Friday and then official publication of standard usually ~2 months after final approval) which improve the bandwidth per stream from 11 Gbit on 802.11AD (WiGig just another name for 802.11AD standard) to 44Gbit on 802.11AY.  It still not going to have as good latency as a wired connection but at least the theoretical bandwidth is close to HDMI 2.1 levels.

Distance will also be improved to a level that if there line of sight it wont be a issue.  It still not going to be able to go through walls well but as long as there line of sight it should be fine.

On average about a year from publication to product in most cases for IEEE standards (Main home Wifi like 802.11AX,AC etc is an exception to this rule as products usually release when the standard still in draft form.  802.11AX routers been available for over a year and it only got revcom approval in February of this year and not even publish yet but expected to be in April).

So it not that unreasonable to believe that in second half of 2022 we start seeing VR headset that actually a decent experience connecting to a computer/console wirelessly.

What Sony can do is put the final reproject stage on the headset. PSVR generally renders in 60 fps, then reprojects each frame twice (shifts it slightly to align with latest head movement) to get low latency 120 fps. That part can be done on the headset, then you only need to send 60fps through the air and the headset can provide latency free 120 fps (at least latency free matching head movements)

Maybe PSVR 2.0 pro could be a wireless version, although it would mean another breakout box. (Unless a ps5 pro with 802.11 launches alongside, options). The annoying part is the battery, where to put it, how long can you use it, how much weight does it add etc. Maybe one on each side you can swap out with two that are charging.

Cable for now, cheaper, lighter, smaller, lower latency. Tie a whack of helium balloons to the cable so you can't step on it :D



SvennoJ said:
Cyran said:

802.11 AY will be available soon (IEEE revcom voting on final approval this Friday and then official publication of standard usually ~2 months after final approval) which improve the bandwidth per stream from 11 Gbit on 802.11AD (WiGig just another name for 802.11AD standard) to 44Gbit on 802.11AY.  It still not going to have as good latency as a wired connection but at least the theoretical bandwidth is close to HDMI 2.1 levels.

Distance will also be improved to a level that if there line of sight it wont be a issue.  It still not going to be able to go through walls well but as long as there line of sight it should be fine.

On average about a year from publication to product in most cases for IEEE standards (Main home Wifi like 802.11AX,AC etc is an exception to this rule as products usually release when the standard still in draft form.  802.11AX routers been available for over a year and it only got revcom approval in February of this year and not even publish yet but expected to be in April).

So it not that unreasonable to believe that in second half of 2022 we start seeing VR headset that actually a decent experience connecting to a computer/console wirelessly.

What Sony can do is put the final reproject stage on the headset. PSVR generally renders in 60 fps, then reprojects each frame twice (shifts it slightly to align with latest head movement) to get low latency 120 fps. That part can be done on the headset, then you only need to send 60fps through the air and the headset can provide latency free 120 fps (at least latency free matching head movements)

Maybe PSVR 2.0 pro could be a wireless version, although it would mean another breakout box. (Unless a ps5 pro with 802.11 launches alongside, options). The annoying part is the battery, where to put it, how long can you use it, how much weight does it add etc. Maybe one on each side you can swap out with two that are charging.

Cable for now, cheaper, lighter, smaller, lower latency. Tie a whack of helium balloons to the cable so you can't step on it :D

Yeah agreed very unlikely PSVR 2 will not be wired.  The only question is could they make a wireless addon with it.  It would be tricky through on a PS5 since having it plugged into a 10Gbps usb port would not be enough bandwidth.  The only way I can think of doing it is having a 802.11AY dongle with HDMI 2.1 in and out and the dongle be capable of hdmi 2.1 passthrough when not in use.  

A PS5 pro with it built in would defiantly Simplify it.

EDIT:  actually now that I think about it I don't know why I thought that would be hard to do, I mean that how the PSVR is being wired to the console anyway so defiantly possible to make a 802.11AY add on if they was so inclined.

Last edited by Cyran - on 24 March 2021

SvennoJ said:
VAMatt said:

Yes, I agree.  That is the fundamental problem faced by VR, and (I think) the biggest hurdle remaining.  

I've used every major tethered VR headset excluding the Index.  I own PSVR and I owned Gear VR.  IMO, Gear VR was the overall best experience because of the relatively higher level of immersion possible without a cable.  There are much better looking games on the tethered headsets. Many of the games are much better in many other ways as well.  But, you simply cannot forget about the cable(s) in most games.  You must pay attention to them, otherwise you'll get wrapped up.  So, either you're consciously thinking about cables, or you're ignoring them for a minute until you get wrapped up and have to stop playing to untangle. Either way is extremely immersion breaking.  

I have not used in Oculus Quest, nor have I used the wireless accessory for Vive.  I hear very good things about the latest Quest.  My buddy, who has been messing around with VR since the early days of Rift DK2 (that's when I first was exposed as well), and is much more of a VR enthusiast than I am, speaks highly of it.  So, I think I may take the plunge this year. 

I haven't been doing much with VR lately, because I kind of lost interest after a couple of years when I finally accepted the reality that the necessary levels of immersion just weren't really possible yet in high rez, cutting edge games.  

What games are you playing that you have to stop to untangle the cable?

I'm only aware of the cable while playing Beat Saber and there I hang it over my shoulder down my back to avoid stepping on it or getting wrapped in it. For sit down games it's never an issue, just the few you walk around a bit. It would be nicer without a cable but you still need a power source. Wearing a battery on your body or on the headset isn't comfortable either. I'm much more aware of the headset than the cable. Lighter and more comfort first.

Two fundamental problems, transmission rates and power. If the battery only lasts a couple hours, I'll still be playing tethered on a charge cable while having the extra bulk and weight of the battery...

Nr 1 improvement for comfort for me would be adjustable lenses so I don't need to wear my glasses inside the headset. I don't with beat saber since I can see all the shapes fine and it's a lot more comfortable. It's blur on top of low res though, far from ideal.

Yes, I know a few people in my family who had trouble with this. I had trouble with headphones as they won't fit over the VR headset and my ears are shaped funny and won't hold regular earphones. 

I didn't pay any stand up games, but I remember kids trying out the deep sea dive demo and wanting to stand up and look around and me thinking omg the cables, watch the cables.



OneTime said:
mutantsushi said:

Yeah, I didn't understand the logic of their scenario. Besides what you mention, none of that "increases the install base" if it's just serving people who already own PSVR1 with PS4/PS5. I don't know if they were unaware that PS4 VR games can run on PS5, but it doesn't make sense to produce PS5 only games designed for PSVR1 which is vastly smaller than combined PS4/Pro/PS5 PSVR market, and any new VR games entering production can make the biggest splash if they target PSVR2 for PS5.

I think most people with PS5 and PSVR1 at the moment are aware that they can play their old PS4 games.  From what I understand, developers can't really use the enhanced features of PS5 for these games (the PSVR locks the system in bc mode or something similar - I haven't found any examples of "here's what PS5 can do for PSVR").

Should new PS5 VR games support old headsets?  That must be up to the developers, in my opinion.  Building a PS5-only game is already a costly business.  Building a PS5-only, PSVR2-only game may result in a lot of developers baulking.

To me it feels like a mistake for there not to be a couple of PS5 VR titles at launch for the old headset, even if they were just small demos.  It makes it look like Sony "forgot" about their VR product.

@bolded: A simple Google search...

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.roadtovr.com/blood-truth-firewall-zero-hour-ps5-update-enhancements/amp/




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SvennoJ said:
VAMatt said:

Yes, I agree.  That is the fundamental problem faced by VR, and (I think) the biggest hurdle remaining.  

I've used every major tethered VR headset excluding the Index.  I own PSVR and I owned Gear VR.  IMO, Gear VR was the overall best experience because of the relatively higher level of immersion possible without a cable.  There are much better looking games on the tethered headsets. Many of the games are much better in many other ways as well.  But, you simply cannot forget about the cable(s) in most games.  You must pay attention to them, otherwise you'll get wrapped up.  So, either you're consciously thinking about cables, or you're ignoring them for a minute until you get wrapped up and have to stop playing to untangle. Either way is extremely immersion breaking.  

I have not used in Oculus Quest, nor have I used the wireless accessory for Vive.  I hear very good things about the latest Quest.  My buddy, who has been messing around with VR since the early days of Rift DK2 (that's when I first was exposed as well), and is much more of a VR enthusiast than I am, speaks highly of it.  So, I think I may take the plunge this year. 

I haven't been doing much with VR lately, because I kind of lost interest after a couple of years when I finally accepted the reality that the necessary levels of immersion just weren't really possible yet in high rez, cutting edge games.  

What games are you playing that you have to stop to untangle the cable?

I'm only aware of the cable while playing Beat Saber and there I hang it over my shoulder down my back to avoid stepping on it or getting wrapped in it. For sit down games it's never an issue, just the few you walk around a bit. It would be nicer without a cable but you still need a power source. Wearing a battery on your body or on the headset isn't comfortable either. I'm much more aware of the headset than the cable. Lighter and more comfort first.

Two fundamental problems, transmission rates and power. If the battery only lasts a couple hours, I'll still be playing tethered on a charge cable while having the extra bulk and weight of the battery...

Nr 1 improvement for comfort for me would be adjustable lenses so I don't need to wear my glasses inside the headset. I don't with beat saber since I can see all the shapes fine and it's a lot more comfortable. It's blur on top of low res though, far from ideal.

The one cable claim could very much be for charging purpose and allowing you to play wired when the battery needs said charging through the USB-C port at the front of the PS5.. That would be my hopeful best case scenario. Because, like you, I don’t think the cable that the PSVR headset has gets in the way anywhere near as much as some others claim here. In fact, I think most of those complaining about it are either purposefully exaggerating the issue to try to make their point, or doing it to downplay the PSVR in typical concern trolling fashion.

That being said, a wireless headset would still be preferred for convenience purpose, even if it only has 3 hours battery life in-between charges. When it dies off, you plug it and the experience becomes no more or no less cumbersome as the original PSVR. And I say that because the least cords visible in my entertainment center the better.

In the end, the most important thing for me, aside from the controller which I think they nailed, will be the display quality and its pixel density. It needs to have a high pixel density so the aliasing isn’t as distracting as what is found in the current headset, and so they don’t need to put vaseline on the graphics to compensate.

Last edited by Hynad - on 25 March 2021


Hynad said:

@bolded: A simple Google search...

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.roadtovr.com/blood-truth-firewall-zero-hour-ps5-update-enhancements/amp/

LOL - read carefully.  It explicitly says:

"It’s also worth mentioning that there’s still a lot of power under the hood that the games can’t tap into because they aren’t built natively for PS5; Sony still hasn’t confirmed if we’ll ever see native PS5 games for PSVR."

That was the article I actually based my original comment on.  Although to be fair I did say "what PS5 can do for VR" - even running PS4 games on PS5 does make them a little better.  I'm not a believer in this "cross-gen" stuff, personally - if I pay for PS5, I want games specifically written for PS5.

Last edited by OneTime - on 25 March 2021

OneTime said:
Hynad said:

@bolded: A simple Google search...

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.roadtovr.com/blood-truth-firewall-zero-hour-ps5-update-enhancements/amp/

LOL - read carefully.  It explicitly says:

"It’s also worth mentioning that there’s still a lot of power under the hood that the games can’t tap into because they aren’t built natively for PS5; Sony still hasn’t confirmed if we’ll ever see native PS5 games for PSVR."

That was the article I actually based my original comment on.  Although to be fair I did say "what PS5 can do for VR" - even running PS4 games on PS5 does make them a little better.  I'm not a believer in this "cross-gen" stuff, personally - if I pay for PS5, I want games specifically written for PS5.

LMAO!!! - The games are PS4 games running in BC mode. It goes without saying that, as such, they weren’t conceived to harness the PS5’s feature set. Yet developers can patch the game to recognize when it is running off a PS5 and enhancements that harness the PS5’s capabilities that make sense without having to alter the entire game engine are then provided. That simple common sense that none of those PS4 games are going to tap into the full potential of the PS5. That you need to point this out as if it was some sort of issues is questionable at best.

As for the PS5 currently not having native PS5 VR games, that’s another non issue that is answered through another dose of common sense. The PSVR is a PS4 peripheral that was built around the specs of that console. With the eventual release of Sony’s second gen VR headset coming for the PS5, you’d think the developers making VR games are currently working on their titles to be ready for that device’s eventual launch.

Finally, saying that “It makes it look like Sony "forgot" about their VR product” after all the VR games that got announced recently makes it seem like you’re behind on information.

Last edited by Hynad - on 25 March 2021


Hynad said:
OneTime said:

LOL - read carefully.  It explicitly says:

"It’s also worth mentioning that there’s still a lot of power under the hood that the games can’t tap into because they aren’t built natively for PS5; Sony still hasn’t confirmed if we’ll ever see native PS5 games for PSVR."

That was the article I actually based my original comment on.  Although to be fair I did say "what PS5 can do for VR" - even running PS4 games on PS5 does make them a little better.  I'm not a believer in this "cross-gen" stuff, personally - if I pay for PS5, I want games specifically written for PS5.

LMAO!!! - The games are PS4 games running in BC mode. It goes without saying that, as such, they weren’t conceived to harness the PS5’s feature set. Yet developers can patch the game to recognize when it is running off a PS5 and enhancements that harness the PS5’s capabilities that make sense without having to alter the entire game engine are then provided. That simple common sense that none of those PS4 games are going to tap into the full potential of the PS5. That you need to point this out as some sort of issues is questionable at best.

As for the PS5 currently not having native PS5 VR games, that’s another non issue that is answered through another dose of common sense. The PSVR is a PS4 peripherals that was built around the specs of that console. With the eventual release of Sony’s second gen VR headset coming for the PS5, you’d think the developers making VR games are currently working on their titles to be ready for that device’s launch.

Finally, saying that “It makes it look like Sony "forgot" about their VR product” after all the VR games that got announced recently makes it seem like you’re behind on information.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.  I think you agree that there is no support for "native PS5 games running on PSVR1".  So a logical conclusion is that they only support PSVR1 running PS4 games in backwards compatibility mode.

The PSVR is just a headset display, so there is no particular reason that PS5 games could not target it.  Maybe Sony will allow developers to do so in future.

As there were no VR titles in the PS5 launch line up, and the PSVR1 needs an extra adaptor, and it still isn't clear if people will be forced to upgrade to PSVR2 to play PS5 VR games, I'd say that it is fair to say that Sony's messaging is a bit disjointed.



OneTime said:
Hynad said:

LMAO!!! - The games are PS4 games running in BC mode. It goes without saying that, as such, they weren’t conceived to harness the PS5’s feature set. Yet developers can patch the game to recognize when it is running off a PS5 and enhancements that harness the PS5’s capabilities that make sense without having to alter the entire game engine are then provided. That simple common sense that none of those PS4 games are going to tap into the full potential of the PS5. That you need to point this out as some sort of issues is questionable at best.

As for the PS5 currently not having native PS5 VR games, that’s another non issue that is answered through another dose of common sense. The PSVR is a PS4 peripherals that was built around the specs of that console. With the eventual release of Sony’s second gen VR headset coming for the PS5, you’d think the developers making VR games are currently working on their titles to be ready for that device’s launch.

Finally, saying that “It makes it look like Sony "forgot" about their VR product” after all the VR games that got announced recently makes it seem like you’re behind on information.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.  I think you agree that there is no support for "native PS5 games running on PSVR1".  So a logical conclusion is that they only support PSVR1 running PS4 games in backwards compatibility mode.

The PSVR is just a headset display, so there is no particular reason that PS5 games could not target it.  Maybe Sony will allow developers to do so in future.

As there were no VR titles in the PS5 launch line up, and the PSVR1 needs an extra adaptor, and it still isn't clear if people will be forced to upgrade to PSVR2 to play PS5 VR games, I'd say that it is fair to say that Sony's messaging is a bit disjointed.

What exactly is the disjointed message? The PSVR runs all the VR titles that come out on PS4 and PS Store. If you have a PS5, it runs all those games as well, and no titles have been announced to require anything PS5 specific outside of the PS4 cam adaptor, which Sony is giving for free to everyone requiring it.

So you are creating this “disjointed message” out of thin air, and trying to make an issue over nothing. As for the PS5 not targeting the current PSVR, why should they alienate the majority of PSVR owners using the PS4 for these games?

It wouldn’t make sense to make VR titles that leave out the users from the gen the peripheral is made for.

Last edited by Hynad - on 25 March 2021