By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - How is Nintendo's and Sony's relationship today?

RolStoppable said:
B6a6es said:

while i agree regarding the (Avoiding-Xbox) deals (SFV - Timed Nier Automata & FFVIIR-XVI) i don't recall any of those games (or other similar deals) had anything to do with the switch, for example the Spiderman DLC Exclusive for the Avengers or Timed Exclusive Cold War Zombie DLC wouldn't even affect Switch owners since none of these games are available on the switch in the first place nor is there any plans of porting them (mostly due to Hardware Limitations of the Switch).

while there might be minor competition between the Two (Sony-Nintendo) they’re no longer in bad terms as they were in the Past, and almost all of the Deals Sony Make Nowadays are mostly Towards Xbox, not the Switch.

So once again, kindly provide any examples of Sony Blocking a Game, DLCs , or even Timed Exclusively from the Switch.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with the Wii and Wii U.

You Implied that Console gaming wasn't declining in Japan but people would rather only buy Nintendo consoles instead, and i simply presented the last 2 non-handleld Nintendo Consoles that either Failed *Wii U* or were slightly Above PS3 in Sales *Wii* (Despite PS3 being a Bulky, way more Expensive Console at the time).

Sounds like too much effort to prove something that you aren't fully contesting yourself, hence why you say "almost all deals" and "mostly towards Xbox, not Switch."

Sorry for not making myself clear, what i meant was 99% of those deals being aimed only towards Xbox (with the 1% being a margin of error, if it exists at all).

ill make it easier for you, just give me a single example and were off.

Wii sales of ~12.5m didn't have anything to do with a decline in interest in console gaming, that was because of sparse third party support which in turn hurt momentum. Wii U sales of ~3.5m do not demonstrate a general decline in interest in console gaming either, because the Wii U failed everywhere in the world.

while it lacked the 3rd Party Support, the Wii U being a failure worldwide isn't Necessarily an indication of its Performance when it comes to the Domestic Japanese Market, its still outsold by the Vita (a failure of its own) or by the Sega Saturn (a massive failure Worldwide, but sold 6M domestically)

,the Wii on the other hand had Much Bigger Japanese 3rd Party Support compared to PS3 at its early years, it Had a Mainline DQ,MH unlike the PS3 which either had a musou spinoff port at the end of its life-cycle (2014) or an HD Port of a PSP game, basically it wasn't until 2011 when Japanese 3rd Party took the PS3 Seriously and by then the Wii U was Announced, outside of Minecraft western games (the bulk of PS3-360 3rd Party Support at the time) has little to no Presence in Japan marketwise.

Gen 8: ~24m (3DS) + ~9.5m (PS4) + ~6m (PSV) + ~3.5m (Wii U) + ~100k (XB1) = ~43m
Gen 9 (projected): 30m+ (Switch) + ~8m (PS5) + ~200k (XSX|S) = 38.2m+

Nintendo basically unified its Splitting Userbase (and its game Library) with the Switch (24.64M + 3.5M isnt far off from the Projected Switch Sales).

Nintendo's sales going up while Sony's get split roughly in half point to the conclusion that Nintendo is taking away gamers from Sony. Which would hardly be a surprise with a greater number of small Japanese third parties shifting to multiplatform development instead of making their games only for PlayStation.

Unless were talking about Money-Hatted Titles (MHR-D6) or 2nd-party titles funded by Nintendo or even titles Mainly or only made for Domestic Market (Momotaro Dentetsu - Tabe-Oja) or titles specifically made for the Switch (Cooking Mama with its Joy-con functionality), then the same could be said for Previous 3rd Party Nintendo Exclusives going Multi-plat with Neo TWEWY (Despite TWEWY1 and Final Mix never been on a PS platform ever) and DQXIS (even coming to Xbox) as well as YW4 being Multi-platform as well (despite the franchise being associated with Nintendo for the longest time)

while some Japanese Developers are still using the old-school working system of developing for 1 SKU (Namely Atlus) the others have moved on where the Majority of Japanese 3rd Party games are Multi-platform (timed-exclusivity involved)

people tend to forget that porting a game outside of DS-3DS were much much more Difficult, Costly and time consuming than porting it out of the switch (due to not requiring additional development time for UI Adjustments to be on a single screen with no touchscreen input, oh and with 3D functionality off!!)

Last edited by B6a6es - on 28 November 2020

Around the Network
RolStoppable said:

Farsala said:

"PS sales aren't declining in Japan because of a major loss of interest in console gaming, they are declining because people buy Nintendo consoles instead."

@"Quote" They aren't declining from a major loss of interest in console gaming but they aren't declining because people are buying Nintendo consoles instead...

Using Vgchartz for simplicity sake, and XB always assumed at remaining 1% or less. (no PS2)

end of 2006- Nintendo: 79%, Sony 20%

2007- Nintendo: 71%, Sony 28%

2008- Nintendo: 59%, Sony 40%

2009- Nintendo: 59%, Sony 40%

2010- Nintendo: 50%, Sony 49%

2011- Nintendo: 59%, Sony 40%

2012- Nintendo: 70%, Sony 29%

2013- Nintendo: 70%, Sony 29%

2014- Nintendo: 58%, Sony 41%

2015- Nintendo: 56%, Sony 43%

2016- Nintendo: 70%, Sony 29%

2017- Nintendo: 68%, Sony 31%

2018- Nintendo: 79%, Sony 20%

 end of 2019 to date- Nintendo: 88%, Sony 11%

Nintendo has always held dominance aside from when the PSP came out, and while the PSV held the tide a bit, it succumbed quickly. The big difference is 2019, but that is simply because Sony doesn't have handhelds anymore, and sales are bad during console transitions. If the imaginary PSV 2 sold only 1m, then the marketshare would be 75%/24%. Overall the marketshare is rather stable up to this point. The next years could change that.

@ Switch 30m, what is your yearly breakdown for that?

Calling the market share stable doesn't sound right when Nintendo went from ~60% to ~80%.

As for a yearly breakdown, Switch will end 2020 at ~17.5m (I hope I am remembering this correctly), so going from there I see it selling something like 5m, 4m, 3m, 2m and then fizzle out over the following years. In Japan Switch is closer to the saturation point than anywhere else in the world, so a steady decline has to be expected despite revisions and price cuts in the coming years, unless Nintendo puts out a revision so substantial that they'll get a high repurchase rate. Whether they'll be able to pull that off is up in the air, hence why I said 30m+ and not ~30m.


Nintendo had 80% or better in the first period I posted, as well as many times in the years before when Sony did not have a handheld. I listed the entire double Handheld era aside from end of 2005-2006. The way VGC does their charts really throws me off... But anyways expect lower than usual Sony/Nintendo marketshare during transition periods vs peak periods. Sony might actually win a year in marketshare with their lowest selling console...



RolStoppable said:
Farsala said:

Nintendo had 80% or better in the first period I posted, as well as many times in the years before when Sony did not have a handheld. I listed the entire double Handheld era aside from end of 2005-2006. The way VGC does their charts really throws me off... But anyways expect lower than usual Sony/Nintendo marketshare during transition periods vs peak periods. Sony might actually win a year in marketshare with their lowest selling console...

You wrote down the disclaimer that PS2 sales are excluded, so I wasn't going to pretend that the 2006 and 2007 splits are correct. Prior to 2006, it wasn't that great of a time for Nintendo either. We have lifetime figures of 20m PS1s and 23m PS2s vs. 5m N64s and 4m GCs plus 16m GBAs and... I don't recall how much the GBC sold right now. But when you have these numbers as a basis and then spread them over the course of a good decade, you'll get nowhere near 80% for Nintendo in any year, plus it actually gives Sony a higher market share in some years. (Sega was there too and had a higher presence than the Xbox afterwards, but it's not that important.)

As for Sony winning a year with the PS5, that's a longshot. The PS4 peaked at ~2.0m and it's hard to imagine that the PS5 can top that.

You are correct that there are fluctuations in market share due to transition periods for both companies, but it's apparent from the numbers you posted (they are complete for the transition from gen 7 to gen 8, and the transition from gen 8 to gen 9) that the state of the market has swung more in favor of Nintendo from one generation to the next one. The previous time Nintendo topped out at 70%, this time they got to 80%.

EDIT:

@Farsala , I found this video, covers market share for the years 1996 to 2007, so starting at the point where the PS1 got traction. Start of the video until the 6 minute mark is the elaborate version with system breakdown. 6 minute mark until the end is the short version with only a manufacturer breakdown. Sony had the majority market share from 1997 through 2005.

GBA and Gamecube were also excluded, my bad on the disclaimer. Due to VGC weird way of making charts, retrieving the necessary information in my comparison would be far too difficult.

Also without this guy's sources, we can't tell if it is correct without fact checking it. I can already tell 2005 is wrong in the way we normally measure things. His 2005 has PS2 outselling the DS, GBA, and Gamecube combined.

Here is a 2005 report:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2006/01/11/famitsu-reports-2005-japan-sales

DS  4,002,871 units

PSP 2,225,799 units

PS2 2,134,863 units

It appears that video is a software marketshare video, when the argument has always been about hardware.



Not very well which is already mentioned in this very thread. Sony is still paying third parties to keep games off Nintendo platforms. Remember the crossplay fiasco??? Their refusal of cross platform play.

And Sony is also still copying Nintendo. (Dual Sense rumble is made by the exact same company that made hd rumble)
https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/jwaf9s/ps5s_dualsense_haptic_feedback_is_made_by_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


Microsoft, on other hand, is handing out exclusives on switch.

Last edited by BlackBeauty - on 29 November 2020

RolStoppable said:

PS sales aren't declining in Japan because of a major loss of interest in console gaming, they are declining because people buy Nintendo consoles instead.

Could it not be both? It's clear that the Switch's success has taken and will continue taking large amounts of customers away from Playstation in Japan but I do think a big factor in the decline is also interest moving away from pure home consoles and towards handheld devices such as handheld or hybrid consoles and mobile gaming.



Around the Network
RolStoppable said:
thismeintiel said:

Oh boy.

Key word is hybrid. It's a handheld that sits in a dock to connect to the TV. Doesn't change the fact that it is still mostly a handheld. Which Japan loves. And without the hybrid nature and detachable joycons for multiplayer, the Switch isn't really a Switch, so I can see why more are getting the OG.

Really Ring Fit? Sure, it's selling fine (especially in Japan, which makes up nearly 40% of it's WW sales), but it's not doing Wii Sports Resort or Balance Board numbers. Doesn't change the fact that their big motion control initiative, Labo, failed. Or that they aren't pushing motion control games out left and right.  Ring Fit also had to use fitness appeal to sell. 

Looks like you have trouble to keep your bias in check. You keep insisting that Switch sells because it's a handheld, then turn around to admit that the hybrid sells more because people want to play it on the TV.

RFA will keep selling and will eventually reach Wii Fit numbers. You said motion controls were a fad, yet here we are and have a game that people like you would have predicted to have no chance to sell 10m+, but it's already safe to say that it will clear that bar with ease. Calling Labo a big motion control initiative shows a severe lack of understanding on your part; Labo was a product very similar to Wii Music, more toy than game. Wii Music couldn't achieve success during the peak of the Wii, unlike later games like Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit Plus. Also, what's the sudden difference between motion controls and fitness appeal? In your mind it was all a fad anyway, with distinctions only becoming necessary once your simplistic point of view begins to show a lack of coherence.

I think you're the one not keeping your bias in check. Do you honestly think if the Switch was twice as powerful, but only a home console, it would have fared as well? Hell no. It's because it's a handheld that people can play on the go and easily hook it up to the TV when at home. You also have the multiplayer on the go with the Joycons.

And we'll see how RFA continues to sell. Right now it's at 5.8M after a year. Wii Sports Resort was at 7.6M after 6 months. I highly doubt it reaches the 33M of Sports Resort. Even more unlikely to hit 42M that the Balance Board did.

And funny that you just dismiss Labo as Wii Music. Nintendo thought it was going to be a big hit and push HW sales while they had a slight drought in SW output. That obviously didn't happen, causing them to miss their quarterly projection. It's obvious they had big plans for it with more kits. Maybe it would have done better if they acted like it was for fitness.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 29 November 2020

Besides relationship getting better due to past issues having long gone, I guess by now both Sony and MS understood Nintendo is precious for console gaming world, it does a huge work to keep it fresh and vital with new ideas.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


thismeintiel said:
RolStoppable said:

Looks like you have trouble to keep your bias in check. You keep insisting that Switch sells because it's a handheld, then turn around to admit that the hybrid sells more because people want to play it on the TV.

RFA will keep selling and will eventually reach Wii Fit numbers. You said motion controls were a fad, yet here we are and have a game that people like you would have predicted to have no chance to sell 10m+, but it's already safe to say that it will clear that bar with ease. Calling Labo a big motion control initiative shows a severe lack of understanding on your part; Labo was a product very similar to Wii Music, more toy than game. Wii Music couldn't achieve success during the peak of the Wii, unlike later games like Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit Plus. Also, what's the sudden difference between motion controls and fitness appeal? In your mind it was all a fad anyway, with distinctions only becoming necessary once your simplistic point of view begins to show a lack of coherence.

I think you're the one not keeping your bias in check. Do you honestly think if the Switch was twice as powerful, but only a home console, it would have fared as well? Hell no. It's because it's a handheld that people can play on the go and easily hook it up to the TV when at home. You also have the multiplayer on the go with the Joycons.

And we'll see how RFA continues to sell. Right now it's at 5.8M after a year. Wii Sports Resort was at 7.6M after 6 months. I highly doubt it reaches the 33M of Sports Resort. Even more unlikely to hit 42M that the Balance Board did.

And funny that you just dismiss Labo as Wii Music. Nintendo thought it was going to be a big hit and push HW sales while they had a slight drought in SW output. That obviously didn't happen, causing them to miss their quarterly projection. It's obvious they had big plans for it with more kits. Maybe it would have done better if they acted like it was for fitness.

Umm.... You do know that your argument is a double edged sword right? Would the switch sell as well if it was only a handheld? I doubt it.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

RolStoppable said:
Norion said:

Could it not be both? It's clear that the Switch's success has taken and will continue taking large amounts of customers away from Playstation in Japan but I do think a big factor in the decline is also interest moving away from pure home consoles and towards handheld devices such as handheld or hybrid consoles and mobile gaming.

The PS4 sold more units than the Vita, so an inherent immense advantage for handhelds does not exist. Rather it's an often used excuse to explain away Nintendo's continued success in the country while it frames Sony's situation as being one that is out of Sony's control.

Moving interest has first and foremost to do with the quality of game libraries, because with that explanation you achieve logical consistence across hardware form factors and generations. The PS4 sold more than the Vita because it had a better game library than it, the 3DS sold more than the Wii U for the same reason, Switch will handily beat the PS5 for the same reason. It obviously helps Switch that is both home console and handheld console, because the flexibility in how you can play the system is an inherent value, but the most important factor for its success is its robust game library. That's why its sales can keep up with the 3DS and will soon pass it launch-aligned despite a notably higher price point and far fewer revisions over the comparable timeframe.

If you go further back in the generations, you have the DS and PSP which first made handhelds have higher hardware market share than home consoles. Both of them had much more quality and quantity in their game libraries than previous handhelds because game development costs on home consoles had hit a breaking point, forcing many developers to examine their opportunities elsewhere. The generation before (PS2, GC, GBA) didn't have this issue, so the PS2 had it easy to amass a much bigger game library than Nintendo's consoles. Unsurprisingly, every generation before 2000 played out the same way.

In a way the form factor of hardware does matter a lot in Japan, but it's not that Japanese gamers have something against playing games on TVs, rather it's that the evergrowing game development costs caused a change to the previous reality that home consoles would get the lion share of the software, and then gamers followed the games. This can once again be observed with Switch sales where the hybrid SKU has comfortably outsold the Lite and the only reason for the Lite's competitiveness was prolonged limited stock for the hybrid SKU. If handhelds were what Japan inherently prefers to play on, then the Lite should sell far better due to its price.

The Vita's sales are a good point. I was thinking that due to the PS3 declining a lot that showed a move of interest away from home consoles but then after thinking about it some more the PS3 declined everywhere, a bigger decline percentage wise in Japan but not that much more. There is the Wii and how it didn't do as well in Japan compared to north America and Europe but it might've just not caught on as much there as it did in the west. Since the top 3 and eventually top 4 best selling systems of all time in Japan will be handheld devices and how massive mobile gaming is in that country there is some of level preference for handheld devices for gaming I'd say but game library and how appealing the hardware is are the biggest factors so a hybrid system with a strong library will offer the most appeal to Japanese customers.



It's complicated...