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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Microsoft: Xbox Series S and X only next-gen consoles with full RDNA 2 feature set

shikamaru317 said:
This matches with the rumors that PS5 was originally designed as a 2019 console, but had to be delayed into 2020, full RDNA 2 wouldn't have been ready if PS5 was designed as a 2019 console originally. Also explains why PS5 has a 350 watt power supply compared to 320 watt for Xbox Series X, even though Xbox Series X is more powerful and has locked clocks compared to variable clocks on PS5; if PS5 is only RDNA 1.5 (RDNA 1 with some RDNA 2 features), we know that RDNA 2 is more power efficient, which would explain why Xbox Series can get away with a smaller power supply in spite of the console being more powerful.

Power Supply does not equal Power Consumption.

The law of thermodynamics literally comes into play, essentially a Power Supply converts energy (I.E. 240v down to 12v) and in the process of doing so looses some energy during the conversion process... And every power supply has an efficiency curve.

So for example... An 80% efficient 400w power supply would actually draw 480w from the wall to deliver 400w, where-as a 90% efficient power supply would draw 440w from the wall.

Both deliver 400w.

And another aspect we need to keep in mind is that as a power supply begins to age, they actually do become less efficient, so console manufacturers need to build additional tolerance in the power supply to ensure that as it ages, it will still be able to provide the electrical needs over the long term.

In short... Please take the 350w vs 320w PSU as irrelevant, because ultimately it is.
What needs to happen is proper power draw analysis done on individual components... And that generally isn't happening until these devices are released.

Bandorr said:

Wonder which version I saw on the DMC website.  It isn't coming to PC so probably not that one.

It isn't on S and has to be patched on X later. So I'm guessing the PS5 version then?

I found that pretty impressive.

Then again my only real first-hand impression of ray-tracing is Control on PC. That was amazing but very taxing.

I love a good comparison though. We could see Control vs Control. Or DMC vs DMC (post patch).  I think Watch dogs has it also?

I'll have to go back and watch the spider-man one. I thought the reflections looked good but maybe I have forgotten.  What is a good example of "good" RT reflections that I can watch?

Ray Tracing has been in video games for years, trust me, we have all seen it and experienced it to various degrees.
Hardware based Ray Tracing is taking it a big leap forwards.

Hiku said:

So the idea that they'd somehow miss out on something they developed together sounds extremely unlikely.

I think the reason people got confused is because these chips were designed while AMD were still working on their PC mass market RDNA2. So in that sense both Microsoft's and Sony's solutions could be called RDNA 1.5. Not because they are inferior to RDNA 2, but because they are custom, different, and finalized shortly before AMD's PC version.

But because 99.99% of people will look at 1.5 and think it means something negative, Sony and MS would want to call them RDNA2 based.

It's really to early to tell what the fundamental differences are between RDNA 1.0 and 2.0 from a low-laying perspective anyway.

But even Microsoft's Xbox Series X has some significant deviation from known PC RDNA 2.0 GPUs, such as lacking an infinity cache.

KratosLives said:
Shinobi-san said:

Because MS knows that no other console runs DirectX :)

Ah ok, so just the usual PR stuff. 

From an end user perspective, pretty much.

Regardless if you have an Xbox Series S, Series X or a Playstation 5, you are going to have a fantastic time.

Goatseye said:
Shinobi-san said:

haha i guess so.

But that doesn't mean Sony has the full feature set of RDNA 2, but I would imagine that Sony would have had the choice to include or exclude as they see fit. We do know for sure though that Cerny directly made reference to Mesh Shaders and a variant of Sampler Feedback. He however, made no reference to Variable Rate Shading or anything similar as far as I know.

I’m pretty sure Cerny mentioned Primitive Shader and not Mesh.

Mesh and Primitive Shaders are the same thing.





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chakkra said:

I've been seeing this rumor running around online for a while now, but these are the things that you cannot mention in here bcuz it is considered "console war,"
But anyway, my suspicions that the rumor might've been true started when MS kept mentioning DirectML while Sony did not. I'm really intrigued to see how this feature will be utilized in the future. The most logical thing would be to use it to implement its own version of DLSS.

Yeah, there was a Sony patent that emerged a while back that seemed to be about their own DLSS, similar to what Nvidia is using. Doesn't mean that that's what they will go with, as patents tend to come and go. But the point is that Sony has their own solutions for some things, MS went a slightly different direction but the games will be glorious all around.



TheBraveGallade said:
I mean, its probably an advantage to devs who are used to PC, meaning Xbox versions might run slightly better then ps5 if its a game also on PC.

That being said, we don't know how well PS's solution will do VERSES the xbox's DX12 implementation so...

Quote from digital foundry

 " Every single developer I've spoken to developing for PS5 has been evangelising how easy it is to work for".



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eva01beserk said:
TheBraveGallade said:
I mean, its probably an advantage to devs who are used to PC, meaning Xbox versions might run slightly better then ps5 if its a game also on PC.

That being said, we don't know how well PS's solution will do VERSES the xbox's DX12 implementation so...

Quote from digital foundry

 " Every single developer I've spoken to developing for PS5 has been evangelising how easy it is to work for".

“It’s essentially the same development environment as PS4 and you scale up from there, for the new powers, the features, and whatnot. I can't stress enough how happy developers seem to be with this situation.”



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eva01beserk said:
TheBraveGallade said:
I mean, its probably an advantage to devs who are used to PC, meaning Xbox versions might run slightly better then ps5 if its a game also on PC.

That being said, we don't know how well PS's solution will do VERSES the xbox's DX12 implementation so...

Quote from digital foundry

 " Every single developer I've spoken to developing for PS5 has been evangelising how easy it is to work for".

Easy to develop for is different then being more capable. Hence the OP regarding RDNA 2 



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sales2099 said:
eva01beserk said:

Quote from digital foundry

 " Every single developer I've spoken to developing for PS5 has been evangelising how easy it is to work for".

Easy to develop for is different then being more capable. Hence the OP regarding RDNA 2 

Diferent sure, but not opose. As far as we know the ps5 could be both. Untill its out we don't know but we do know that so far devs prefer the ps5. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:
sales2099 said:

Easy to develop for is different then being more capable. Hence the OP regarding RDNA 2 

Diferent sure, but not opose. As far as we know the ps5 could be both. Untill its out we don't know but we do know that so far devs prefer the ps5. 

prefer? how the hell did you get from that statement



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

eva01beserk said:
sales2099 said:

Easy to develop for is different then being more capable. Hence the OP regarding RDNA 2 

Diferent sure, but not opose. As far as we know the ps5 could be both. Untill its out we don't know but we do know that so far devs prefer the ps5. 

I mean AMD confirmed the disparity but sure let’s drag this out a little more haha 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Pemalite said:

It's really to early to tell what the fundamental differences are between RDNA 1.0 and 2.0 from a low-laying perspective anyway.

If we forget for a moment about PS5 vs XSX (which is the part that makes everybody shut their doors) and just focus on RDNA2 vs RDNA1, there has been a few articles outlining the differences between them.

"Ever since AMD announced the RDNA2 architecture, they have reiterated a singular goal: they wanted to achieve a 50% jump in perf-per-watt over RDNA1. And that they would accomplish it entirely with architectural improvements, not process improvements..."

"Along with numerous optimizations to the power efficiency of their GPU architecture, RDNA2 also includes a much-needed update to the graphics side of AMD’s GPU architecture. RDNA (1), though a massive replumbing of the core compute architecture, did not include any graphics feature upgrades. As a result, AMD only offered a DirectX feature level 12_1 feature set – the same as the Radeon RX Vega series – at a time when NVIDIA was offering ray tracing and the other features that have since become DirectX 12 Ultimate"

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16202/amd-reveals-the-radeon-rx-6000-series-rdna2-starts-at-the-highend-coming-november-18th/2

And about Primitive Shaders and Mesh Shaders being exactly the same, not quite. 

"A Mesh shader is a new type of shader that combines vertex and primitive processing. VS, HS, DS, and GS shader stages are replaced with Amplification Shader and Mesh Shader. Roughly, Mesh shaders replace VS+GS or DS+GS shaders and Amplification shaders replace VS+HS."

https://microsoft.github.io/DirectX-Specs/d3d/MeshShader.html

"Mesh shaders represent a radical simplification of the geometry pipeline. With a mesh shader enabled, all the shader stages and fixed-function features described above are swept away. Instead, we get a clean, straightforward pipeline using a compute-shader-like programming model. Importantly, this new pipeline is both highly flexible—enough to handle the existing geometry tasks in a typical game, plus enable new techniques that are challenging to do on the GPU today— it looks like it should be quite performance-friendly, with no apparent architectural barriers to efficient GPU execution."

https://www.starcitizen.gr/2642867-2/



LudicrousSpeed said:


It’s pretty amazing how over time the GitHub leak has turned out to be almost entirely accurate. GAF and Reeeeeee mods should be dining on crow for months. It also explains the delay in dev kits that people were rumored to be annoyed by earlier this year, MS was simply waiting for full RDNA2 support.

There's nothing suggesting this is likely. The idea that Sony would be the first to want to cut the generation short before Microsoft with the amount of software they're selling makes little to no sense anyway. Nor does the idea that Sony would finish development a year ahead of Xbox Series X, but then spend the next year year not further developing their GPU, just sitting on their thumbs, when both consoles launch at the exact same time. Meaning they were finalized around the same time. Even AMD's RDNA2 launches literally the same week as PS5 and XSX. They weren't waiting for anything.

Sony and Microsoft were developing RDNA2 in tandem together with AMD at the same time. They can chose whatever features they want, with perhaps the exception of DirectX. And that may just be what this headline is alluding to.

You're using the term "Full RDNA2 support" as if AMD's solution is the standard that Sony and Xbox are borrowing from. It's not. AMD may have even borrowed ideas from Sony and MS, as Cerny pointed out. And vice versa.
All three were developed together, and chose different solutions because they are all for different systems. It just so happens that only AMD named their solution "RDNA2". I don't think we know what MS and Sony named theirs. But RDNA2 is the buzzword that everyone is familiar with.

So since AMD are using DirectX Raytracing and Sony is using a non-DirectX version, MS can say that they are the only ones to have 'full RDNA2 support' and que the conspiracy theories about a 2019 release, inferior architecture, power consumption, etc.

Pemalite said:

Power Supply does not equal Power Consumption.

The law of thermodynamics literally comes into play, essentially a Power Supply converts energy (I.E. 240v down to 12v) and in the process of doing so looses some energy during the conversion process... And every power supply has an efficiency curve.

So for example... An 80% efficient 400w power supply would actually draw 480w from the wall to deliver 400w, where-as a 90% efficient power supply would draw 440w from the wall.

Both deliver 400w.

And another aspect we need to keep in mind is that as a power supply begins to age, they actually do become less efficient, so console manufacturers need to build additional tolerance in the power supply to ensure that as it ages, it will still be able to provide the electrical needs over the long term.

In short... Please take the 350w vs 320w PSU as irrelevant, because ultimately it is.
What needs to happen is proper power draw analysis done on individual components... And that generally isn't happening until these devices are released.

That's some interesting insight there, thanks. Didn't know that they'd both deliver 400w in that scenario.
I was thinking along the lines of them having different fans, different SSD controllers, overclocking, etc. 

Pemalite said:
Hiku said:

So the idea that they'd somehow miss out on something they developed together sounds extremely unlikely.

I think the reason people got confused is because these chips were designed while AMD were still working on their PC mass market RDNA2. So in that sense both Microsoft's and Sony's solutions could be called RDNA 1.5. Not because they are inferior to RDNA 2, but because they are custom, different, and finalized shortly before AMD's PC version.

But because 99.99% of people will look at 1.5 and think it means something negative, Sony and MS would want to call them RDNA2 based.

It's really to early to tell what the fundamental differences are between RDNA 1.0 and 2.0 from a low-laying perspective anyway.

But even Microsoft's Xbox Series X has some significant deviation from known PC RDNA 2.0 GPUs, such as lacking an infinity cache.

Yeah, some details have been announced, but others will be discovered as people get to test them. The first AMD GPUs with RDNA2 are launching the same week as XSX and PS5, so it sounds like they were all finalized around the same time. But they'll all differ from each other in some ways because they're designed for different systems. AMD's solution needs to take into account a whole slew of different hardware configurations, while Sony and MS's is based on set hardware, so they can do some specific things with theirs.

sales2099 said:

I mean AMD confirmed the disparity but sure let’s drag this out a little more haha 

DirectX Raytracing vs Sony's Raytracing? Keep in mind that it was also AMD developing this solution, so they would likely create something that easily translates between PS5 and their own GPUs, which use DirectX RTX.

Either way these consoles are now seemingly a lot closer to PC than ever before.

Last edited by Hiku - on 29 October 2020