By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - What happened in the US? My honest question as a foreigner

Tagged games:

JWeinCom said:
Dulfite said:

I respect your opinion. But I retain my own. All murders are terrible. They are all sins.

I don't think anyone disputed that. 

Suppose you are a parent of a high school student.  Your child comes home one day and reports that one of his classmates punched him.  How outraged are you on a scale from 1-10?

Now suppose you are the parent of a high school student.  Your child comes home one day and reports that one of his teachers punched him.  How outraged are you on a scale from 1-10?

That's not a fair comparison. Chances are the punch from the teacher is a lot harder that the punch from the student. If they were equally powerful punches and did the same amount of damage, I'd be equally mad. But I'd be more mad about the one that hurt my child more, which in this case probably means I'd be more mad about the teacher.

Murdering someone is murdering someone. There isn't a less bad murder compared to others.



Around the Network
Dulfite said:
JWeinCom said:

I don't think anyone disputed that. 

Suppose you are a parent of a high school student.  Your child comes home one day and reports that one of his classmates punched him.  How outraged are you on a scale from 1-10?

Now suppose you are the parent of a high school student.  Your child comes home one day and reports that one of his teachers punched him.  How outraged are you on a scale from 1-10?

That's not a fair comparison. Chances are the punch from the teacher is a lot harder that the punch from the student. If they were equally powerful punches and did the same amount of damage, I'd be equally mad. But I'd be more mad about the one that hurt my child more, which in this case probably means I'd be more mad about the teacher.

Murdering someone is murdering someone. There isn't a less bad murder compared to others.

Well... having worked in the educational system, I can say that is quite an atypical response. Fights happened every day.  On the one or two occasions a teacher touched a student (not hit but either held back from another student or something) there were investigations.  I was investigated for allegedly making a fist at a student.  

If you don't get that people aren't just angry about the murder, but the flaws in the system that allow this sort of thing to happen repeatedly... idk.  I'll try one more time.  

Scenario a, your child is punched by a student.  The teacher immediately calls for security.  The other student is suspended.

Scenario b, your child is punched by a student equally hard.  The teacher does nothing.  You bring the issue up to the teacher, and still nothing is done.  You bring it up to the principal, and nothing happens.

Are you equally outraged in these situations?



Dulfite said:
JWeinCom said:

I don't think anyone disputed that. 

Suppose you are a parent of a high school student.  Your child comes home one day and reports that one of his classmates punched him.  How outraged are you on a scale from 1-10?

Now suppose you are the parent of a high school student.  Your child comes home one day and reports that one of his teachers punched him.  How outraged are you on a scale from 1-10?

That's not a fair comparison. Chances are the punch from the teacher is a lot harder that the punch from the student. If they were equally powerful punches and did the same amount of damage, I'd be equally mad. But I'd be more mad about the one that hurt my child more, which in this case probably means I'd be more mad about the teacher.

Murdering someone is murdering someone. There isn't a less bad murder compared to others.

By high school, a male student, especially an athlete, is likely to be able to hit far harder than a teacher, especially a woman. By that age they're entering their peak physical prowess, while most teachers are well past their prime. 

As another example, two high school students having consensual sex is not a crime, though it might upset their parents if they found out about it. A sexual relationship between a student and a teacher is a crime in almost every jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of consent, because the teacher is the authority figure, plus depending on their ages, statutory rape comes into play. Plus, the teacher is likely to lose his/her teaching license even if not convicted of a crime. 

Again, the difference is the power dynamic. In both cases, a person entrusted by the state and the community to protect those under their authority betrayed that trust.



The Black community has born the bulk of the systemic discrimination in this country for generations; however, the grievances they have now is the immense over reach of law enforcement that can lawfully kill and take their property without providing much proof other than their words and those of their peers; add to that a system which requires slaves for the prison industrial complex--cheap labor for the private sector. Slavery hasn't really gone away, there is provision in the 13th amendment (of the US constitution) that strips citizens of their rights if your a prisoner: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Black people from the middle to lower class just want a fair shake to prosperity, but it's been denied to them for centuries, and what little wealth that they accumulated has been wiped out in these past few recessions.

The system is corrupt you say, how? The System trains cops to go after the weak "crimes", and adopts the gang mentality to protects its own over the law as long as the order of things is not disrupted, and those in power are not examined. To those people that view the black community as hoodlums and thugs, they don't understand or have ever felt the systemic discrimination that the black community have endured since they were brought here from Africa. They never felt the decades of segregation, red lining, Jim Crowism, police/KKK harassment, CIA roll in creating the drug and gang culture within black communities. (When one has no good choices available to them, they find a way to survive by good or bad means.) The Poor and working black people have a real case in their hand, but they won't be heard or treated fairly because the system is unequal, requires cheap labor, and they are one of many scapegoats for what is wrong in the country because those in power and the government they have created, are not to be looked; let alone be blamed.



JWeinCom said:
Dulfite said:

That's not a fair comparison. Chances are the punch from the teacher is a lot harder that the punch from the student. If they were equally powerful punches and did the same amount of damage, I'd be equally mad. But I'd be more mad about the one that hurt my child more, which in this case probably means I'd be more mad about the teacher.

Murdering someone is murdering someone. There isn't a less bad murder compared to others.

Well... having worked in the educational system, I can say that is quite an atypical response. Fights happened every day.  On the one or two occasions a teacher touched a student (not hit but either held back from another student or something) there were investigations.  I was investigated for allegedly making a fist at a student.  

If you don't get that people aren't just angry about the murder, but the flaws in the system that allow this sort of thing to happen repeatedly... idk.  I'll try one more time.  

Scenario a, your child is punched by a student.  The teacher immediately calls for security.  The other student is suspended.

Scenario b, your child is punched by a student equally hard.  The teacher does nothing.  You bring the issue up to the teacher, and still nothing is done.  You bring it up to the principal, and nothing happens.

Are you equally outraged in these situations?

I would definitely be more outraged by Scenario B, but what does that have to do with this situation? The cop was fired and has now been charged with murder. He will have his day in court and go away for a very long time (or life). His wife is divorcing him on top of it. There isn't an example of "the teacher does nothing" taking place here.

Or are you talking about society as a whole? If so, how do you make sure every single individual in a high stress job (police) isn't about to snap? Seems impossible to me. 

There are far, far, far more people being murdered by non police officers and it's like society has grown desensitized to that and has instead become obsessed with the far, far, far less murders being committed by police officers.

I wish we were all horrified by all murders to the same degree that some are to a specific ethnic group getting killed by a specific profession (when it happens).



Around the Network
SanAndreasX said:
Dulfite said:

That's not a fair comparison. Chances are the punch from the teacher is a lot harder that the punch from the student. If they were equally powerful punches and did the same amount of damage, I'd be equally mad. But I'd be more mad about the one that hurt my child more, which in this case probably means I'd be more mad about the teacher.

Murdering someone is murdering someone. There isn't a less bad murder compared to others.

By high school, a male student, especially an athlete, is likely to be able to hit far harder than a teacher, especially a woman. By that age they're entering their peak physical prowess, while most teachers are well past their prime. 

As another example, two high school students having consensual sex is not a crime, though it might upset their parents if they found out about it. A sexual relationship between a student and a teacher is a crime in almost every jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of consent, because the teacher is the authority figure, plus depending on their ages, statutory rape comes into play. Plus, the teacher is likely to lose his/her teaching license even if not convicted of a crime. 

Again, the difference is the power dynamic. In both cases, a person entrusted by the state and the community to protect those under their authority betrayed that trust.

Most schooling takes place before high school, so I don't know why we are focusing on that here? Elementary and middle schoolers punch each other a lot as well. If the example specified high school I would have said something different, but it didn't.

And by the way, it varies from states to states what the years are, but in my state (I believe) an 18 year old can sleep with a 17 year old (if consensual) but not 16 or younger (that's illegal). But yeah if both are minors it isn't illegal. 



This could have been a chance for real reform, but instead of being happy that 99.9% of America was against what happened, you still have people who are just angry no matter what. Or worse, wanting to take advantage of the situation in order to get free shit and burn some buildings down. Even with the looters, we still could have moved past it for real reform, instead you have whackos on the Left making excuses for the looters/rioters. My guess is it's either the bigotry of low expectations or they just love the chaos.



Dulfite said:
JWeinCom said:

Well... having worked in the educational system, I can say that is quite an atypical response. Fights happened every day.  On the one or two occasions a teacher touched a student (not hit but either held back from another student or something) there were investigations.  I was investigated for allegedly making a fist at a student.  

If you don't get that people aren't just angry about the murder, but the flaws in the system that allow this sort of thing to happen repeatedly... idk.  I'll try one more time.  

Scenario a, your child is punched by a student.  The teacher immediately calls for security.  The other student is suspended.

Scenario b, your child is punched by a student equally hard.  The teacher does nothing.  You bring the issue up to the teacher, and still nothing is done.  You bring it up to the principal, and nothing happens.

Are you equally outraged in these situations?

I would definitely be more outraged by Scenario B, but what does that have to do with this situation? The cop was fired and has now been charged with murder. He will have his day in court and go away for a very long time (or life). His wife is divorcing him on top of it. There isn't an example of "the teacher does nothing" taking place here.

Or are you talking about society as a whole? If so, how do you make sure every single individual in a high stress job (police) isn't about to snap? Seems impossible to me. 

There are far, far, far more people being murdered by non police officers and it's like society has grown desensitized to that and has instead become obsessed with the far, far, far less murders being committed by police officers.

I wish we were all horrified by all murders to the same degree that some are to a specific ethnic group getting killed by a specific profession (when it happens).

Experience has shown that police officers are frequently are not treated in the same way when they commit crimes.  In this case in particular, the officer had been the subject of multiple allegations of police brutality, and was still on the force, and seemingly never subject to discipline.  This time, it just happens to have been caught on videotape. The teacher did nothing over and over again until the teacher was caught not doing anything.  And people, right or wrong, did not believe anything was going to be done this time either.  If nobody was outraged, who knows if he would have been arrested.  We still don't know if he will actual be convicted. This is what people are protesting.  Not that murder is bad, but the policies that put potential murderers in positions of power, don't remove them when they show signs that they are a danger to people, and then don't forcefully prosecute them if and when they are arrested.



JWeinCom said:
Dulfite said:

I respect your opinion. But I retain my own. All murders are terrible. They are all sins.

I don't think anyone disputed that. 

Suppose you are a parent of a high school student.  Your child comes home one day and reports that one of his classmates punched him.  How outraged are you on a scale from 1-10?

Now suppose you are the parent of a high school student.  Your child comes home one day and reports that one of his teachers punched him.  How outraged are you on a scale from 1-10?

Dulfite said:
SanAndreasX said:

By high school, a male student, especially an athlete, is likely to be able to hit far harder than a teacher, especially a woman. By that age they're entering their peak physical prowess, while most teachers are well past their prime. 

As another example, two high school students having consensual sex is not a crime, though it might upset their parents if they found out about it. A sexual relationship between a student and a teacher is a crime in almost every jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of consent, because the teacher is the authority figure, plus depending on their ages, statutory rape comes into play. Plus, the teacher is likely to lose his/her teaching license even if not convicted of a crime. 

Again, the difference is the power dynamic. In both cases, a person entrusted by the state and the community to protect those under their authority betrayed that trust.

Most schooling takes place before high school, so I don't know why we are focusing on that here? Elementary and middle schoolers punch each other a lot as well. If the example specified high school I would have said something different, but it didn't.

And by the way, it varies from states to states what the years are, but in my state (I believe) an 18 year old can sleep with a 17 year old (if consensual) but not 16 or younger (that's illegal). But yeah if both are minors it isn't illegal. 

Yep, high school was specifically said. Read the bolded.

Ultimately, the ages aren't the point. The authority is the point. Miscreants do exist in society, but it's a far bigger problem for society when the people who are entrusted with authority are the miscreants. One bad apple in a position of authority can do far more damage than an ordinary citizen if left unchecked, and often there is no recourse against those who abuse their authority because the system protects them. Cops (and other government officials) have "qualified immunity," which means that unless a citizen can prove their constitutional rights were violated, they're untouchable, and the courts set an extremely high bar for a plaintiff to prove violation of their rights. The current standard for qualified immunity is Harlow v. Fitzgerald (457 U.S. 800 (1982)).

Nobody should ever be above the law, whether it's a police officer, a city alderman, a Congressman, or the President of the United States himself.

Last edited by SanAndreasX - on 31 May 2020

NightlyPoe said:
JWeinCom said:

Experience has shown that police officers are frequently are not treated in the same way when they commit crimes.  In this case in particular, the officer had been the subject of multiple allegations of police brutality, and was still on the force, and seemingly never subject to discipline.  This time, it just happens to have been caught on videotape. The teacher did nothing over and over again until the teacher was caught not doing anything.  And people, right or wrong, did not believe anything was going to be done this time either.  If nobody was outraged, who knows if he would have been arrested.  We still don't know if he will actual be convicted. This is what people are protesting.  Not that murder is bad, but the policies that put potential murderers in positions of power, don't remove them when they show signs that they are a danger to people, and then don't forcefully prosecute them if and when they are arrested.

May I suggest the people out there starting fires, breaking stuff, and attacking people for being the wrong color don't give a rip about the scenario at all and are just violent people committing violence because they have the opportunity to do so?

I understand your hypothetical.  But, frankly, I don't think it applies.  For the violent, what we have is an excuse, not a cause.

I'm sure some of them are.