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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Outer World game design are held back by PS4 and Xbox One , another prove that Next gen will be held back by current gen if games are made for cross gen

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What do you think

Cross gen games will held... 9 52.94%
 
Yes it suck to have cross... 6 35.29%
 
I don't care because the ... 1 5.88%
 
i don't agree with game d... 1 5.88%
 
Total:17
Pemalite on 21 April 2020
HollyGamer said:
Pemalite said:

Don't know that for sure just yet, 343i might bolt on some Ray Tracing effects.

Well next gen is not just about RT , also many developer ditch their old engine for new one because they trying to optimize to become fully RT engine. This could only happen if the lighting are fully RT and no SR at all, and will be benefit on next gen console/PC performance when running games with RT. Old RT tech are limited on performance because it was optimize on old engine and old Uarc .  So i doubt Halo infinite to have fully RT if it's still using Screen Space reflection and other old lighting method. To be fully RT and run very well on next gen, they need  to sacrifice Xbox One port and build based on Xbox series X. 

Many developers don't just "ditch" the old engine, they optimize, repurpose, overhaul current engines... I mean shit, the latest Call of Duty engine still has remnants of the Quake engine from decades ago, same goes for the Creation Engine with remnants of Net Immerse and the latest Unreal Engine still has remnants of the first Unreal Engine. - We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Ray Tracing will be a "bolt-on" effect for the foreseeable future.

Besides we don't have the hardware for a "full RT engine" - Ray Tracing is something that is progressively rolling out as hardware becomes more capable, we had games using some rudimentary forms of Ray Tracing even in the 7th gen because the hardware had reached a point where it was starting to be viable. (Especially in deferred renderers!) and Cry Engine started using Voxel based Global Illumination 5+ years ago.

And even the Unreal Engine had Voxel cone tracing back in 2012.
https://polycount.com/discussion/100642/voxel-cone-tracing-gi-discussion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_tracing

So Ray Tracing isn't new, games and the game engines that power them have been using it for years to various degrees, next-gen is just going to be one of the larger and more impressive jumps in this aspect due to the dedicated processing cores to hardware accelerate the ray tracing compute problem.

Also we can implement Ray Tracing without needing Screen-space data, it's just going to be a little more difficult... And will likely require a rethinking of the graphics renderer in games.

In saying that... It's a similar situation Tessellation found itself in, PC games had Tessellation back during even the Playstation 2/6th console generation/Direct X 8.1 era... And games often bolted-on the effect using geometry "patches" to great effect... As a technology it didn't become a standard until Direct X 11 came along, but games still just "bolted it on" in their game engines.

Once the 8th gen happened, many developers took their older engines/games and continued to "bolt on" Tessellation to various degrees of success, but eventually they would start to parse the models to side step it entirely... Although some games today still use Tessellation in the traditional bolt-on sense and with great success... And because you can disable it in AMD's graphics drivers entirely, obtain some performance gains on the PC side.

It is going to be the same for Ray Tracing.



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HollyGamer on 21 April 2020
Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

Well next gen is not just about RT , also many developer ditch their old engine for new one because they trying to optimize to become fully RT engine. This could only happen if the lighting are fully RT and no SR at all, and will be benefit on next gen console/PC performance when running games with RT. Old RT tech are limited on performance because it was optimize on old engine and old Uarc .  So i doubt Halo infinite to have fully RT if it's still using Screen Space reflection and other old lighting method. To be fully RT and run very well on next gen, they need  to sacrifice Xbox One port and build based on Xbox series X. 

Many developers don't just "ditch" the old engine, they optimize, repurpose, overhaul current engines... I mean shit, the latest Call of Duty engine still has remnants of the Quake engine from decades ago, same goes for the Creation Engine with remnants of Net Immerse and the latest Unreal Engine still has remnants of the first Unreal Engine. - We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Ray Tracing will be a "bolt-on" effect for the foreseeable future.

Besides we don't have the hardware for a "full RT engine" - Ray Tracing is something that is progressively rolling out as hardware becomes more capable, we had games using some rudimentary forms of Ray Tracing even in the 7th gen because the hardware had reached a point where it was starting to be viable. (Especially in deferred renderers!) and Cry Engine started using Voxel based Global Illumination 5+ years ago.

And even the Unreal Engine had Voxel cone tracing back in 2012.
https://polycount.com/discussion/100642/voxel-cone-tracing-gi-discussion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_tracing

So Ray Tracing isn't new, games and the game engines that power them have been using it for years to various degrees, next-gen is just going to be one of the larger and more impressive jumps in this aspect due to the dedicated processing cores to hardware accelerate the ray tracing compute problem.

Also we can implement Ray Tracing without needing Screen-space data, it's just going to be a little more difficult... And will likely require a rethinking of the graphics renderer in games.

In saying that... It's a similar situation Tessellation found itself in, PC games had Tessellation back during even the Playstation 2/6th console generation/Direct X 8.1 era... And games often bolted-on the effect using geometry "patches" to great effect... As a technology it didn't become a standard until Direct X 11 came along, but games still just "bolted it on" in their game engines.

Once the 8th gen happened, many developers took their older engines/games and continued to "bolt on" Tessellation to various degrees of success, but eventually they would start to parse the models to side step it entirely... Although some games today still use Tessellation in the traditional bolt-on sense and with great success... And because you can disable it in AMD's graphics drivers entirely, obtain some performance gains on the PC side.

It is going to be the same for Ray Tracing.

That's true , but Metro Redux developer said differently , they said they are now ditching old engine and build new one to be fully RT for lightning effect . This just give a hint that old engine build on old gen tech cannot utilize RT in good performance. Many GPU that has RT struggle running games with RT because the foundation of the engine are not built within RT inside. 

EDIT: probably they are not ditching the entire engine, but possibly build a new engine with a new technique based on the existing engine , but they are mentioning new tech that can only be happen on new hardware 

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-4a-games-on-next-gen-we-are-fully-into-ray-tracing

 "In an interview centred on 4A Games' excellent work in bringing Metro Redux to Switch, we asked CTO Oles Shishkovstov for his reaction to publicly revealed aspects of next generation console hardware. "We are fully into ray tracing, dropping old-school codepath/techniques completely," he told us."

Also, there are others stuff that they cannot wait to shows, this possibly mean new tech beside RT 

Last edited by HollyGamer - on 21 April 2020

Azzanation on 22 April 2020
Pemalite said: 
Azzanation said:

Look at the XB1 launch line up. They launched with Forza 5, Dead Rising 3, Killer Instinct and Ryse Son of Rome. All these games were built on XB1 hardware, did that change the fate of the console? It was outsold by the PS4 3 to 1. 

Nintendo a few years later launch the Switch with Zelda BOTW, a cross gen game made on limited WiiU hardware and it blew the competition doors down and sold incredibly well.

To be fair... Forza didn't appeal to me, Dead Rising 3 was meh, Ryse was meh. Killer Instinct launched bare-bones and didn't become a good game until much later.

Forza was the only shining game in that lineup critically.

In the case of Breath of the Wild, could it have been a better game if it was designed from the ground up for Switch hardware? Visually yes. But by how much? The jump between the WiiU and Switch isn't as large as the Xbox 360 to Xbox One remember, most Wii U ports to Switch just get a framerate/resolution bump and that is it.

Not disagreeing, that's kind of my point. Especially with launch line up games, being made on next gen hardware doesn't automatically make these games good. PS4 was guilty for the exact same thing at launch as well. One of the first games this gen that was actually revolutionary was Titanfall, a game that was also cross gen. 

Hardware is great if devs know how to use it and utilise it correctly, other wise we are left with shallow games that look amazing but lack substance. Drive Club is still one of the best looking racers ever made, but many probably prefer to play Forza horizon 2, another cross gen title while Drive Clubs success of a game is determine by the fate of the company being closed down. Another good example is Over Watch, a game also made on practically everything and its accolades speak for itself here.

Nintendo every gen continues to prove that you don't need hardware to make amazing games on top of still revolutionising genres. WiiU's gap between the Switch isn't as big as the 360/PS3 is to the XB1/PS4, however the gap between the WiiU is worlds apart from the XB1/PS4 and yet it holds one of the best games ever made. 

I guess this is my own personal opinion here, but if I had to choose between a good game that's made with Cross gen in mind or a mediocre/average game made on next gen hardware, id choose the good Cross gen game.