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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Nintendo banned Square from their offices for 10 years after FFVII went to PlayStation. EDIT: japanese business model is akin to Yakuza

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What do you think

Nintendo is God they never make a mistake 7 26.92%
 
Square the ones who to be blame 8 30.77%
 
I dont why i just hate Sony 2 7.69%
 
I 9 34.62%
 
Total:26

Who taught them making Super Mario RPG with pre-rendered 3D backgrounds and characters like Donkey Kong Country?

Last edited by QUAKECore89 - on 12 April 2020

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That sad comment tho



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This article is very old. I read it almost last year. This thread is very biased against Nintendo (I have no ill towards OP, just stating the truth about the content), you have to understand that Nintendo and Square were in an almost exclusive relationship. If you read the article it's clear that basically they were only producing for Nintendo, not Sega, not Neo Geo, not anybody else.

"[In September 1995] I was hired by the president of the company, [Tetsuo] Mizuno-san, and he told me that, “Squaresoft will always be with Nintendo. … As long as you work for us, it’s basically the same as working for Nintendo.” And the week after I joined, they started saying, “Oh, maybe we should switch to Sony.” So I was kind of shocked."

Nintendo published Final Fantasy in the US, and helped promote the jRPG in the west. If you read the article, you would know that making jRPGs mainstream in the west was a gargantuan task. Nintendo didn't succeed what Sony succeeded in doing, but they very much helped the brand in its infancy, when Square was producing its final ... fantasy game. They were going bankrupt. Put simply, Square was almost a 2nd party to Nintendo, and they cheated on Nintendo because Nintendo was being a bad boyfriend, in relationship terms basically is it in a nutshell. These topics are sensitive, as the article mentions:

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

When we made our decision, the president of Square [Masafumi Miyamoto], our lead programmer [Ken Narita] and I went to a meeting with Yamauchi-san. There is an old cultural tradition where, in Kyoto, someone will welcome you with tea, but you’re not supposed to really drink that tea. It’s just polite to have it there. And Yamauchi-san welcomed us with a very expensive bento meal and beer, and gave us a very nice welcome and basically patted us on the back to say, “I wish you the best.” No bitter feelings or anything.

Hiroshi Kawai

Character programmer, Square Japan

I think [Sakaguchi] is just trying to be politically correct with that one.

Yoshihiro Maruyama

Executive vice president, Square U.S.

I don’t think [anyone from Nintendo gave us a hard time]. They said, “Oh, we don’t need that.” That’s what they said. [Laughs] Their philosophy has always been that Nintendo hardware is for their games, and if a publisher wants to publish, “OK you can do it.” But if you don’t like it, “We don’t want you.”

Hiroshi Kawai

Character programmer, Square Japan

What I heard was Nintendo said, “If you’re leaving us, never come back.”

[Note: In October 2001, then Square president Hisashi Suzuki said in an interview that Nintendo became especially frustrated not when Square left, but later when Square helped convince others, such as Enix, to leave as well. Suzuki declined an interview request for this story.]

These tweets are bad press towards Nintendo and only serve to prop up Polygon. I very much loved their article but this is in very bad taste and they should apologize to both Square and Nintendo for this stunt.

The state of journalism is very bad it seems.

Last edited by padib - on 12 April 2020

padib said:

This article is very old. I read it almost last year. This thread is very biased against Nintendo (I have no ill towards OP, just stating the truth about the content), you have to understand that Nintendo and Square were in an almost exclusive relationship. If you read the article it's clear that basically they were only producing for Nintendo, not Sega, not Neo Geo, not anybody else.

"[In September 1995] I was hired by the president of the company, [Tetsuo] Mizuno-san, and he told me that, “Squaresoft will always be with Nintendo. … As long as you work for us, it’s basically the same as working for Nintendo.” And the week after I joined, they started saying, “Oh, maybe we should switch to Sony.” So I was kind of shocked."

Nintendo published Final Fantasy in the US, and helped promote the jRPG in the west. If you read the article, you would know that making jRPGs mainstream in the west was a gargantuan task. Nintendo didn't succeed what Sony succeeded in doing, but they very much helped the brand in its infancy, when Square was producing its final ... fantasy game. They were going bankrupt. Put simply, Square was almost a 2nd party to Nintendo, and they cheated on Nintendo because Nintendo was being a bad boyfriend, in relationship terms basically is it in a nutshell. These topics are sensitive, as the article mentions:

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

When we made our decision, the president of Square [Masafumi Miyamoto], our lead programmer [Ken Narita] and I went to a meeting with Yamauchi-san. There is an old cultural tradition where, in Kyoto, someone will welcome you with tea, but you’re not supposed to really drink that tea. It’s just polite to have it there. And Yamauchi-san welcomed us with a very expensive bento meal and beer, and gave us a very nice welcome and basically patted us on the back to say, “I wish you the best.” No bitter feelings or anything.

Hiroshi Kawai

Character programmer, Square Japan

I think [Sakaguchi] is just trying to be politically correct with that one.

Yoshihiro Maruyama

Executive vice president, Square U.S.

I don’t think [anyone from Nintendo gave us a hard time]. They said, “Oh, we don’t need that.” That’s what they said. [Laughs] Their philosophy has always been that Nintendo hardware is for their games, and if a publisher wants to publish, “OK you can do it.” But if you don’t like it, “We don’t want you.”

Hiroshi Kawai

Character programmer, Square Japan

What I heard was Nintendo said, “If you’re leaving us, never come back.”

[Note: In October 2001, then Square president Hisashi Suzuki said in an interview that Nintendo became especially frustrated not when Square left, but later when Square helped convince others, such as Enix, to leave as well. Suzuki declined an interview request for this story.]

These tweets are bad press towards Nintendo and only serve to prop up Polygon. I very much loved their article but this is in very bad taste and they should apologize to both Square and Nintendo for this stunt.

The state of journalism is very bad it seems.

Actually Nintendo was bad at that time and 99% developer and game publisher agree . This article not picking any side just stating a real fact. Even Nintendo employee agree and another prove isNintendo has changed a lot since then, which great. 

This happen on N64 and FF7 decisison , before that (SNES) it's  diffrent story. 



Yeah, I've always loved Nintendo's games, but their business practices have not always been something to look back on with pride.



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HollyGamer said:

Actually Nintendo was bad at that time and 99% developer and game publisher agree . This article not picking any side just stating a real fact. Even Nintendo employee agree and another prove isNintendo has changed a lot since then, which great. 

This happen on N64 and FF7 decisison , before that (SNES) it's  diffrent story. 

Nintendo had a different relationship with Squaresoft than it did with Capcom and Konami. They funded their games, and also lent them their Mario IP (Super Mario RPG), which was very rare with Nintendo. Their relationship with Square was very unique and their departure from Nintendo was seen as a severe betrayal, especially becoming exclusive to the Playstation and Sony giving them the 1st party treatment, luring them away from Nintendo was a huge betrayal and a very sneaky move by Sony. Such moneyhatting was a new practice at the time, and Sony knew that they were trying to steal the apple of Nintendo's eye. That's why they bent so far backwards to attract them, to give them support and funding, and even celebrated hard with them when FFVII succeeded. All is fair in love and war, but Sony's move was a threat to Nintendo and Nintendo took it as a threat and an insult, and they were right to do it in my point of view.

Also, the N64 didn't release yet when all of this happened, the SNES was still in its lifecycle when Square departed from Nintendo. Square decided to make the jump at the urgency of its engineers and esp. of Sakaguchi, who felt like he couldn't realize his vision on the N64 dev kits vs Playstation dev kits, due to less polygon counts and limited media space. So this is from the SNES time, the N64 was not yet released. All this is described in the article you linked to.

Also, bad is very relative. Nintendo being "bad" is what allowed it to actually resurrect the video game market in America. How was Nintendo bad? It's simple: they limited the amount of games each developer could make to 5 titles per year. They also required exclusive development to their console and put severe pressure on developers to produce games only for Nintendo. They also charged high royalty fees. However all this is what led to Nintendo's platform being viable in the US and even in Japan, due to the overall quality of their games library.

However times were changing and devs needed more freedom and flexibility. Also, the N64 was limiting the creative freedom of the developers. So, what Sony offered was very welcome by developers, even those who had a very strong partnership with Nintendo. In the end, some developers were very angry at Nintendo for their business practices, but history shows that what Nintendo did was not really bad at all. Actually without it you probably wouldn't be a console gamer today.

I agree that Nintendo became a much better company today, mostly thanks to Satoru Iwata's agreeable mentality, and they have a much better relationship with 3rd parties today for sure. But what happened with Square was very much a mistake on Square and on Sony's part. Also, notice that Sony had not played nice with Nintendo when they partnered with them to make the Nintendo Playstation. The history of betrayal is not new between them, there was a pattern, and for some inconspicuous reason, Sony was always involved in the cases of major betrayal. It begs the question, was Sony looking for its own greatness since the begining? We will never really know, but one thing is for sure: when Sony tried to steal royalties and licensing authority from Nintendo on the Nintendo Playstation, and tried to subvert Nintendo, they learned one big lesson, that Nintendo is a king and you don't try to subvert a king. They also started a cycle of betrayal. Thankfully Nintendo being true to its pedigree, was able to survive the devastation that Sony Playstation caused their brand. Not only that, they pushed back Sony in the Portable space, while everyone was predicting Nintendo's extinction. With almost no 3rd party support, Nintendo trudged through the gamecube and game boy eras. This threatened their very existence. Yet with all that, articles and posts like these try to show Nintendo as the enemy, when the moves that Sony did almost brought Nintendo's ruin. But Nintendo was stronger than people thought, and reinvented itself, and rebranded itself, and took the world by storm, a few times. And now they are what they are today due to their awesome resilience.

It makes you see this story from another light I hope.



padib said:

But what happened with Square was very much a mistake on Square and on Sony's part.

You can argue about who to blame and what not, but that's not even remotely true.

It was a resounding success for Sony in every regard. Absolutely not a mistake in any way, shape or form.

It was a massive success for Square too. If you change business partners and the end result is you rolling in money... how on earth is that a mistake?



@Ka-pi96, it should be patently obvious that I'm talking about business ethics, not popularity or marketshare.



padib said:

@Ka-pi96, it should be patently obvious that I'm talking about business ethics, not popularity or marketshare.

Yes we know. Nintendo's was terrible back in the day.



HollyGamer said:
padib said:

This article is very old. I read it almost last year. This thread is very biased against Nintendo (I have no ill towards OP, just stating the truth about the content), you have to understand that Nintendo and Square were in an almost exclusive relationship. If you read the article it's clear that basically they were only producing for Nintendo, not Sega, not Neo Geo, not anybody else.

"[In September 1995] I was hired by the president of the company, [Tetsuo] Mizuno-san, and he told me that, “Squaresoft will always be with Nintendo. … As long as you work for us, it’s basically the same as working for Nintendo.” And the week after I joined, they started saying, “Oh, maybe we should switch to Sony.” So I was kind of shocked."

Nintendo published Final Fantasy in the US, and helped promote the jRPG in the west. If you read the article, you would know that making jRPGs mainstream in the west was a gargantuan task. Nintendo didn't succeed what Sony succeeded in doing, but they very much helped the brand in its infancy, when Square was producing its final ... fantasy game. They were going bankrupt. Put simply, Square was almost a 2nd party to Nintendo, and they cheated on Nintendo because Nintendo was being a bad boyfriend, in relationship terms basically is it in a nutshell. These topics are sensitive, as the article mentions:

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

When we made our decision, the president of Square [Masafumi Miyamoto], our lead programmer [Ken Narita] and I went to a meeting with Yamauchi-san. There is an old cultural tradition where, in Kyoto, someone will welcome you with tea, but you’re not supposed to really drink that tea. It’s just polite to have it there. And Yamauchi-san welcomed us with a very expensive bento meal and beer, and gave us a very nice welcome and basically patted us on the back to say, “I wish you the best.” No bitter feelings or anything.

Hiroshi Kawai

Character programmer, Square Japan

I think [Sakaguchi] is just trying to be politically correct with that one.

Yoshihiro Maruyama

Executive vice president, Square U.S.

I don’t think [anyone from Nintendo gave us a hard time]. They said, “Oh, we don’t need that.” That’s what they said. [Laughs] Their philosophy has always been that Nintendo hardware is for their games, and if a publisher wants to publish, “OK you can do it.” But if you don’t like it, “We don’t want you.”

Hiroshi Kawai

Character programmer, Square Japan

What I heard was Nintendo said, “If you’re leaving us, never come back.”

[Note: In October 2001, then Square president Hisashi Suzuki said in an interview that Nintendo became especially frustrated not when Square left, but later when Square helped convince others, such as Enix, to leave as well. Suzuki declined an interview request for this story.]

These tweets are bad press towards Nintendo and only serve to prop up Polygon. I very much loved their article but this is in very bad taste and they should apologize to both Square and Nintendo for this stunt.

The state of journalism is very bad it seems.

Actually Nintendo was bad at that time and 99% developer and game publisher agree . This article not picking any side just stating a real fact. Even Nintendo employee agree and another prove isNintendo has changed a lot since then, which great. 

This happen on N64 and FF7 decisison , before that (SNES) it's  diffrent story. 

"Bad" is very subjective.  The most consumer friendly company I've ever encountered in all of gaming was Nintendo in the 80s.  And console gaming would not even exist if it were not for Yamauchi.  On the other hand the third party company that always hated them the most was EA, which happens to be the least consumer friendly company in all of gaming.

There are always at least two sides to every story.  And often time being "hard on third parties" actually means being "aggressively pro-consumer".