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Forums - Politics - Official 2020 US Presidential Election Thread

JRPGfan on 07 November 2020
KLXVER said:
JRPGfan said:

Trump paid 750$ of tax last year, right?
Guy has millions and millions, and lives life at large.

While some poor smuch works 14hours a day, barely makes a liveing, is taxed more than Trump was.
This person might be on the verge of starveing, but the goverment takes more form him, than it does someone like Trump.

How is that fair?
The rich need to pay their taxes, and it needs to be higher than the lowest wage workers, both in terms of amount, but also in %.
This is how a (fair) society works.... and most places around the world its like that.

If trump wants to move to some backwaters african country, where he doesnt have to pay as much in tax's as the US, he's free to do so.

(rich) People like trump, who cheat with taxes, are the reason the US doesnt have enough money to have such things as clean water everywhere.
Millions of americans, have brown/green water, come out of their taps when they open them. Some places the water they have is actually said to be "undrinkable", but its all they have, so they drink unsafe water, bathe in it, and die to health issues from it.  This is the cost, of the rich people cheating the system, and not paying taxes, theres downsides to it, for society (like not haveing money to replace bad pipes ect).

You know what they do have money for?

Bailouts for rich companies! and all of Trumps rich buddies, and tax cuts for the rich :)

How did they have money for this? but not clean water? well.... they took on debt, a IOU if you will... and just did it.
Meanwhile for the past 20years.... clean water has been and stays a issue in large parts of america.... sadly theres no money for anything to be done about it.

People seem to change what Trump has based on their argument. When we point out that hes a rich, successful businessman, then we are wrong because hes a failed businessman with billions in debt. Now hes super rich and pays no taxes. Cant have it both ways. Also he said during the second debate he has paid millions in taxes and will release it soon. Not sure if he will, but we dont know for sure. 

But lets try it out. Lets do it in California. Lots of rich people and lots of very poor people. Especially actors who just want to help SO much. Then after 2 years, if there are more than 5 millionaires living in that state, then call it a success.

You can cheat (not paying taxes) and still fail as a businessman.
You can have nothing in the back, but debt, but still have large amounts of assets (and thus still be rich).

Hes not a successfull businessman.
Otherwise he wouldnt have tons of debt, and have so many of his businesses fail.
He's declaired bankruptcy so many times, not honored paying debts so often, most of the world and its banks wont loan him any money.
Which is why russia basically own him, they lend him money to keep going. Also why hes so friendly towards putin and russia.


He's been saying he ll release his tax returns and all his finanical information, since before he took office and became the president.
He lies.... alot (he doesnt pay millions in tax's, last year he paid 750$). 

Success of a state, isnt determined by how many millionaires choose to live somewhere.
Thats some warped logic there.



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KLXVER on 07 November 2020
JRPGfan said:
KLXVER said:

People seem to change what Trump has based on their argument. When we point out that hes a rich, successful businessman, then we are wrong because hes a failed businessman with billions in debt. Now hes super rich and pays no taxes. Cant have it both ways. Also he said during the second debate he has paid millions in taxes and will release it soon. Not sure if he will, but we dont know for sure. 

But lets try it out. Lets do it in California. Lots of rich people and lots of very poor people. Especially actors who just want to help SO much. Then after 2 years, if there are more than 5 millionaires living in that state, then call it a success.

You can cheat (not paying taxes) and still fail as a businessman.
You can have nothing in the back, but debt, but still have large amounts of assets (and thus still be rich).

Hes not a successfull businessman.
Otherwise he wouldnt have tons of debt, and have so many of his businesses fail.
He's declaired bankruptcy so many times, not honored paying debts so often, most of the world and its banks wont loan him any money.
Which is why russia basically own him, they lend him money to keep going. Also why hes so friendly towards putin and russia.


He's been saying he ll release his tax returns and all his finanical information, since before he took office and became the president.
He lies.... alot (he doesnt pay millions in tax's, last year he paid 750$). 

Success of a state, isnt determined by how many millionaires choose to live somewhere.
Thats some warped logic there.

Then why raise their taxes? Just do what the successful states do...



JRPGfan on 07 November 2020
KLXVER said:
vivster said:

The fact that Donald Trump is both rich and a failure is one of the many problems in that country.

Trying out policy in just 1 state and then complaining that it failed is one of the oldest tricks of right wingers. Social security and income inequality is a national issue and can only be solved nationally. Same thing with healthcare and gun control. Those things only work when they are universal across all states.

I mean that's the whole point of it. EVERYONE has to chip in, not just the people who care. That's the only way it works. And that's why it works in every single developed country except the US.

How is that even going to work at this point? I mean some of the richest and greediest people in the country are the ones that has to pass it into law. Not to mention convincing more than half the country of it. Its nice to think everyone wanting to share their wealth, but thats just not the reality. And the fact that you say it will fail in California makes it seem like you dont have much faith in it either.

You just discribed a Oligarchy.

"Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people may be distinguished by nobility, wealth, education, corporate, religious, political, or military control. Such states are often controlled by families who pass their influence from one generation to the next, but inheritance is not a necessary condition of oligarchy.

Throughout history, oligarchies have often been tyrannical, relying on public obedience or oppression to exist. Aristotle pioneered the use of the term as meaning rule by the rich,[4] for which another term commonly used today is plutocracy. In the early 20th century Robert Michels developed the theory that democracies, as all large organizations, have a tendency to turn into oligarchies. In his "Iron law of oligarchy" he suggests that the necessary division of labor in large organizations leads to the establishment of a ruling class mostly concerned with protecting their own power."


Its not healthy for a good democracy.
This is bad for the majority of people, liveing in the country, and only good for the few rich.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 07 November 2020

JRPGfan on 07 November 2020
KLXVER said:
JRPGfan said:

You can cheat (not paying taxes) and still fail as a businessman.
You can have nothing in the back, but debt, but still have large amounts of assets (and thus still be rich).

Hes not a successfull businessman.
Otherwise he wouldnt have tons of debt, and have so many of his businesses fail.
He's declaired bankruptcy so many times, not honored paying debts so often, most of the world and its banks wont loan him any money.
Which is why russia basically own him, they lend him money to keep going. Also why hes so friendly towards putin and russia.


He's been saying he ll release his tax returns and all his finanical information, since before he took office and became the president.
He lies.... alot (he doesnt pay millions in tax's, last year he paid 750$). 

Success of a state, isnt determined by how many millionaires choose to live somewhere.
Thats some warped logic there.

Then why raise their taxes? Just do what the successful states do...

What states do you term as succesfull?

Since this started with me talking about how large amounts of the US doesnt have clean drinkable water.
Should we use that?  This problem is mostly in the "middle" of america.... where large amounts of poor republican voters live, where taxes are low.

California has high taxes right? (compaired to rest of america).
Why would millionares choose to live there? instead of some poor republican area, where they could pay less in taxes (but have shitty drinking water?):

Maybe they are okay paying taxes if it goes to things they want? such as clean water?



KLXVER on 07 November 2020
JRPGfan said:
KLXVER said:

How is that even going to work at this point? I mean some of the richest and greediest people in the country are the ones that has to pass it into law. Not to mention convincing more than half the country of it. Its nice to think everyone wanting to share their wealth, but thats just not the reality. And the fact that you say it will fail in California makes it seem like you dont have much faith in it either.

You just discribed a Oligarchy.

"Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people may be distinguished by nobility, wealth, education, corporate, religious, political, or military control. Such states are often controlled by families who pass their influence from one generation to the next, but inheritance is not a necessary condition of oligarchy.

Throughout history, oligarchies have often been tyrannical, relying on public obedience or oppression to exist. Aristotle pioneered the use of the term as meaning rule by the rich,[4] for which another term commonly used today is plutocracy. In the early 20th century Robert Michels developed the theory that democracies, as all large organizations, have a tendency to turn into oligarchies. In his "Iron law of oligarchy" he suggests that the necessary division of labor in large organizations leads to the establishment of a ruling class mostly concerned with protecting their own power."

Well if you consider more than half the country a small number of people, then I guess.



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KLXVER on 07 November 2020
JRPGfan said:
KLXVER said:

Then why raise their taxes? Just do what the successful states do...

What states do you term as succesfull?

Since this started with me talking about how large amounts of the US doesnt have clean drinkable water.
Should we use that?  This problem is mostly in the "middle" of america.... where large amounts of poor republican voters live, where taxes are low.

California has high taxes right? (compaired to rest of america).
Why would millionares choose to live there? instead of some poor republican area, where they could pay less in taxes (but have shitty drinking water?):

Maybe they are okay paying taxes if it goes to things they want? such as clean water?

They have high taxes, but rich people have legal ways to work around that.

Last edited by KLXVER - on 07 November 2020

Bofferbrauer2 on 07 November 2020
KLXVER said:
JRPGfan said:

You can cheat (not paying taxes) and still fail as a businessman.
You can have nothing in the back, but debt, but still have large amounts of assets (and thus still be rich).

Hes not a successfull businessman.
Otherwise he wouldnt have tons of debt, and have so many of his businesses fail.
He's declaired bankruptcy so many times, not honored paying debts so often, most of the world and its banks wont loan him any money.
Which is why russia basically own him, they lend him money to keep going. Also why hes so friendly towards putin and russia.


He's been saying he ll release his tax returns and all his finanical information, since before he took office and became the president.
He lies.... alot (he doesnt pay millions in tax's, last year he paid 750$). 

Success of a state, isnt determined by how many millionaires choose to live somewhere.
Thats some warped logic there.

Then why raise their taxes? Just do what the successful states do...

Internationally, that's those who have relatively high taxes for the rich, but low ones or even tax exemptions for the poor.

Keeping those structures in place is just another brick in the wall that the US is running against straight-on while trying to stay on top of the world. The systems, institutions and infrastructure in the US are getting more and more outdated, and without modernizing them, the US will fall behind even with all the advantages they stacked in their favor between WW2 and the 1970's.



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KLXVER on 07 November 2020
Bofferbrauer2 said:
KLXVER said:

Then why raise their taxes? Just do what the successful states do...

Internationally, that's those who have relatively high taxes for the rich, but low ones or even tax exemptions for the poor.

Keeping those structures in place is just another brick in the wall that the US is running against straight-on while trying to stay on top of the world. The systems, institutions and infrastructure in the US are getting more and more outdated, and without modernizing them, the US will fall behind even with all the advantages they stacked in their favor between WW2 and the 1970's.

Fair enough. Im not going to pretend to be some kind of expert. Just seems like an incredible uphill battle.



haxxiy on 07 November 2020

It feels like US votes being counted are a bit like the race course paradox. It takes a day to count 1/2, then another day to count 1/4, then another day to count 1/8, then another day to count 1/16...



 

 

 

 

 

vivster on 07 November 2020

For everyone who is despairing at this election's results there is still hope!

Both of Georgia's Senate seats might go to a runoff election in January. That means the senate could be flipped by the time Biden takes office and actually achieve something during his administration!



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