Forums - Gaming Discussion - Difficulty vs Accessibility: A responsibility for the developers, not for the players.

Alcyon said:

This is getting boring. When will you understand that not wanting an easy mode in some games DOESN'T MEAN (be careful, the caps are important) that I refuse that a game developper can add an easy mode in some (other) games. Seriosuly, what's hard to understand?

If a racing game was a perfect simulation, the most realstic one even possible. And the game was a success for being the most accurate simulation possible, and didn't have an "easy mode", then I don't want an easy mode in that game. If GTS has an easy mode, I don't want it to be removed. What's hard to understand?

So please, stop telling me "that game has an easy mode and it works". Great. Some are lazy and millionaires, so everybody should be lazy to become millionaire?

The complete lack of logic is what's hard to understand.



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Nu-13 said:
Alcyon said:

This is getting boring. When will you understand that not wanting an easy mode in some games DOESN'T MEAN (be careful, the caps are important) that I refuse that a game developper can add an easy mode in some (other) games. Seriosuly, what's hard to understand?

If a racing game was a perfect simulation, the most realstic one even possible. And the game was a success for being the most accurate simulation possible, and didn't have an "easy mode", then I don't want an easy mode in that game. If GTS has an easy mode, I don't want it to be removed. What's hard to understand?

So please, stop telling me "that game has an easy mode and it works". Great. Some are lazy and millionaires, so everybody should be lazy to become millionaire?

The complete lack of logic is what's hard to understand.

So you consider that YOUR way of enjoying games IS universal and refuse to understand that some people don't enjoy games the way you do, and call it "lack of logic". Great. So you refuse to understand that I can accept that some games have an easy mode but I also don't want an easy mode in every game. 

Yes, when at the beggining I have to decide a level of difficulty, it affects me. I don't have a clue if hard means "just a bit harder" or "your tears will be made of blood". So I have to decide. If the game is too easy/hard, I either have to restart from the beggining or not fully enjoy the game. And I don't even know if after that point, the game will be harder or keep a similar level of difficulty.

Yes, when the game dynamically adjust the difficulty, it affects me. I never asked them to hold my hand.

Yes, when I was looking for tips for a specific type of builds in Path of Ecile, I won't have to dismiss 90% of them because they were from people playing in "normal" mode and not "hardcore" (you are a lot more defensive when you can't die even once).

Yes it affects me when I have to faceroll a game to have access to some "hard mode" (and usually more than just harder and not even balanced).

https://www.makinggames.biz/news/debating-difficulty-settings-in-game-design11134.html

But yeah, the best argument when you don't understand something is "your complete lack of logic". If the game doesn't suit you, don't play that game. Simple and easy. Again, just don't play that game and play something else.



Alcyon said:
Nu-13 said:

The complete lack of logic is what's hard to understand.

So you consider that YOUR way of enjoying games IS universal and refuse to understand that some people don't enjoy games the way you do, and call it "lack of logic". Great. So you refuse to understand that I can accept that some games have an easy mode but I also don't want an easy mode in every game. 

Yes, when at the beggining I have to decide a level of difficulty, it affects me. I don't have a clue if hard means "just a bit harder" or "your tears will be made of blood". So I have to decide. If the game is too easy/hard, I either have to restart from the beggining or not fully enjoy the game. And I don't even know if after that point, the game will be harder or keep a similar level of difficulty.

Yes, when the game dynamically adjust the difficulty, it affects me. I never asked them to hold my hand.

Yes, when I was looking for tips for a specific type of builds in Path of Ecile, I won't have to dismiss 90% of them because they were from people playing in "normal" mode and not "hardcore" (you are a lot more defensive when you can't die even once).

Yes it affects me when I have to faceroll a game to have access to some "hard mode" (and usually more than just harder and not even balanced).

https://www.makinggames.biz/news/debating-difficulty-settings-in-game-design11134.html

But yeah, the best argument when you don't understand something is "your complete lack of logic". If the game doesn't suit you, don't play that game. Simple and easy. Again, just don't play that game and play something else.

No, I consider your argument devoid of logic for complaining about something that benefits others while not affecting you in the slightest. And before you say it. NO. What you just wrote doesn't even qualify as a first world problem because it isn't a problem at all.

Last edited by Nu-13 - on 22 February 2020

Nu-13 said:
Alcyon said:

So you consider that YOUR way of enjoying games IS universal and refuse to understand that some people don't enjoy games the way you do, and call it "lack of logic". Great. So you refuse to understand that I can accept that some games have an easy mode but I also don't want an easy mode in every game. 

Yes, when at the beggining I have to decide a level of difficulty, it affects me. I don't have a clue if hard means "just a bit harder" or "your tears will be made of blood". So I have to decide. If the game is too easy/hard, I either have to restart from the beggining or not fully enjoy the game. And I don't even know if after that point, the game will be harder or keep a similar level of difficulty.

Yes, when the game dynamically adjust the difficulty, it affects me. I never asked them to hold my hand.

Yes, when I was looking for tips for a specific type of builds in Path of Ecile, I won't have to dismiss 90% of them because they were from people playing in "normal" mode and not "hardcore" (you are a lot more defensive when you can't die even once).

Yes it affects me when I have to faceroll a game to have access to some "hard mode" (and usually more than just harder and not even balanced).

https://www.makinggames.biz/news/debating-difficulty-settings-in-game-design11134.html

But yeah, the best argument when you don't understand something is "your complete lack of logic". If the game doesn't suit you, don't play that game. Simple and easy. Again, just don't play that game and play something else.

No, I consider your argument devoid of logic for complaining about something that benefits others while not affecting you in the slightest. And before you say it. NO. What you just wrote doesn't even qualify as a first world problem because it isn't a problem at all.

"I don't accept your argument because I don't accept it because I refuse to accept it because I don't want to accept it" is a whole new level of "I am right because I said so". Next time, don't complain if the answer to your complain is "git gud".



Alcyon said:
DonFerrari said:

I lack self control to resist the temptation so I demand that they aren't put in the games.

Do you even read? No you don't, you just repeat the same sentence ad nauseam.

SOME GAMES without an easy mode <> ALL GAMES without an easy mode.

What's hard to understand? Do you understand the difference between SOME and ALL? This is beyond me, in 2020 every single folk feels entiled to DEMAND that EVERY SINGLE GAME is made for him. 

I understand some people complaining that putting an easy mode would make they play the easy mode and be robbed the experience of the hard, that in itself is lack of self control.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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SvennoJ said:
Nautilus said:

Just to pitch in something: wouldn't it also be "selfish" to demand the dev to put in more "features"(since options make it like its something that everyone would like and wouldn't harm the game in any way for others, which is not the case), when it is clearly that they don't want to, whatever the reason may be?

Or rather, since you are getting old and thus don't have the reflexes you claim you once had, you want those features in so that you(and emphasis on that) can enjoy them better, even against the wishes of the creator himself?(which admittedly have more right, and moral grounds, than you and me to do anything they want with their games)Wouldn't you say you are being as "selfish" as us, as you are claiming?

It depends, when does it become ageism. Nobody seems to have an issues with color blind options or subtitles for the hard of hearing. Actually a lot seem to applaud accessibility options. Speed is one of them and will be more relevant as gamers get older.

Because color plind options or subtitles are tools that allow players to play at their fullest.Tools that makes them play with 100% of their power, so to say.These are true acessibility options. Ageism is unfortunely not like them.Until today, we haven't found a solution to getting old, and as much as people who play football professionally needs to retire once they get old, games don't need to cater to old people because its not their fault that you got old.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Chazore said:
Alcyon said:

Then we are not really talking about a genre but a specific target audience. If you narrow down that much, then just list a few games. I don't play this kind of games, I don't know why some people would play them and I don't really care if they have fun. I like to target specific achievements in Europa Universalis IV, some tries are taking 30h+ but I can understand why some people wouldn't do that.

But the main point is still here: if a specific game has a very narrow target audience, where is the problem? To be honest, I get it: random player A doesn't have enough time/motivation/skill/willpower/etc to play a specific game, while many people are liking that specific game. So he wants an easy mode, i.e. several changes in the game to suit him, without even noticing that the game could be less popular for the current players. He could play another games instead, but no.

This is exactly the case with Sekiro. A part of the hype around the game is the difficulty (or in a simRacing game, an ultra-realistic setting). By asking for an easy mode (or in a simRacing game, a less realistic setting) you are asking for a change in the core of the game. This is getting boring, again there are enough games. They could just stop to be selfish and claim "every game should be for me".

If you look at the amount of Souls-like games that are out there today, compared to when it was simply just Demon Souls, then yes, you could consider it a mini genre of it's own. There's a reason why people, even a storefront like Steam calls and has the tag "souls-like", rather than "crushingly difficult", because that doesn't roll off the tongue, nor sound like a fitting sub genre name.

I know you do not play these games, and neither do I, but it's not hard to see what they are and what's transpired since the first ever Souls game. 

There is no problem, but there is also no problem when a dev offers a differing difficulty mode, or when people simply mod one in themselves. Hell, I just posted about the devs behind Dying Light putting in an even easier option, years after the game's release, and that game is known and heavily implied to be a "survival" game, as in you fear for your life during the day and the night, yet they have added an option that does away with that very thing, and it isn't harming anyone in the slightest, because people that want to play things on a harder difficulty can simply choose that option, and those that don't can choose the latter.

Do you understand why we as a species try to make our lives a little easier, or does that not come natural to your line of thought?. Yes, the human race does love a few challenges here and there, but at the same time we also like to make things easier for ourselves, from understanding methods to general science, and obviously to games explaining mechanics and tutorials, that have evolved over time.

The thing is, is that those who do not want said game to be changed to suit others, is that they also want other games to be changed to suit them. We have those same people bickering about games being "watered down", and that they want them to stay stagnant and the same, or made more difficult, to which we end up seeing the excuse "game doesn't need to be for you, but I want it to be for me" being used. 

What's getting boring, is watching a minority whine about how they want games to suit their tastes over others, but claiming they aren't harming anyone themselves. It'd be less insulting if they weren't so self aware of their obnoxious elitist bs. 

It's really funny you saying that, when you yourself have problems with things that can be classified as "obnoxious elitist bs" such as the whole Epic Store discussion, which you certainly have a grudge against(which is stupid by the way)

Anyways, me and the others are not in the minority.Again, sales of these games point otherwise.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Nu-13 said:
Alcyon said:

So you consider that YOUR way of enjoying games IS universal and refuse to understand that some people don't enjoy games the way you do, and call it "lack of logic". Great. So you refuse to understand that I can accept that some games have an easy mode but I also don't want an easy mode in every game. 

Yes, when at the beggining I have to decide a level of difficulty, it affects me. I don't have a clue if hard means "just a bit harder" or "your tears will be made of blood". So I have to decide. If the game is too easy/hard, I either have to restart from the beggining or not fully enjoy the game. And I don't even know if after that point, the game will be harder or keep a similar level of difficulty.

Yes, when the game dynamically adjust the difficulty, it affects me. I never asked them to hold my hand.

Yes, when I was looking for tips for a specific type of builds in Path of Ecile, I won't have to dismiss 90% of them because they were from people playing in "normal" mode and not "hardcore" (you are a lot more defensive when you can't die even once).

Yes it affects me when I have to faceroll a game to have access to some "hard mode" (and usually more than just harder and not even balanced).

https://www.makinggames.biz/news/debating-difficulty-settings-in-game-design11134.html

But yeah, the best argument when you don't understand something is "your complete lack of logic". If the game doesn't suit you, don't play that game. Simple and easy. Again, just don't play that game and play something else.

No, I consider your argument devoid of logic for complaining about something that benefits others while not affecting you in the slightest. And before you say it. NO. What you just wrote doesn't even qualify as a first world problem because it isn't a problem at all.

It affects, and the reasons why are written in the OP and along the thread, if you care to read.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Nautilus said:
SvennoJ said:

It depends, when does it become ageism. Nobody seems to have an issues with color blind options or subtitles for the hard of hearing. Actually a lot seem to applaud accessibility options. Speed is one of them and will be more relevant as gamers get older.

Because color plind options or subtitles are tools that allow players to play at their fullest.Tools that makes them play with 100% of their power, so to say.These are true acessibility options. Ageism is unfortunely not like them.Until today, we haven't found a solution to getting old, and as much as people who play football professionally needs to retire once they get old, games don't need to cater to old people because its not their fault that you got old.

Now that attitude is ageism! Professional football players often become trainers and can still play friendly games in lower leagues. That's all people are asking, a friendlier version for those that want that. Old doesn't mean obsolete. Reaction time and strength may go down, patience and experience still counts.

Games don't need to cater to old people, but as gamers are growing older, it would be a shame to leave that market behind.



SvennoJ said:
Nautilus said:

Because color plind options or subtitles are tools that allow players to play at their fullest.Tools that makes them play with 100% of their power, so to say.These are true acessibility options. Ageism is unfortunely not like them.Until today, we haven't found a solution to getting old, and as much as people who play football professionally needs to retire once they get old, games don't need to cater to old people because its not their fault that you got old.

Now that attitude is ageism! Professional football players often become trainers and can still play friendly games in lower leagues. That's all people are asking, a friendlier version for those that want that. Old doesn't mean obsolete. Reaction time and strength may go down, patience and experience still counts.

Games don't need to cater to old people, but as gamers are growing older, it would be a shame to leave that market behind.

That's exactly my point.Old football players retire as players, but still are inside the "football cosmos": They become teachers, trainers, narrators, club presidents.They use the experience they have and go to a tangent field, thats still related to football bvut isn't football per se.

That's the same for games.You either use that experience to compansate for the reflexes, or you move on to other, different genres.Or play games in the same genre that the devs intended to be either easier, or to have a different experience compared to "pure hard" games.(more focus in exploration, story and less on reflex-like gameplay)



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1