By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

This does raise a moral/ethical question.

Do you let the virus do 'its thing', no more restrictions, since the option is there to get vaccinated if you want / try hard enough. Basically let the anti-vaxers and other hesitant people fend for themselves. (with the risk of creating new strains in the process) And go for herd immunity the hard way.

What about the children though, below 12 aren't getting vaccinated yet and while low occurrence, there are problems with covid in children as well. Plus hospitals will stay busy with covid, pushing other things further and further back.

It seems the USA is done with restrictions, UK as well, the rest can fend for themselves. Canada might be next.

Anyway, instead of getting rid of it / numbers so low it won't flare up again with vaccinations, now it's a wait and see game again whether it's safe to send my youngest back to school. He has to go back regardless, not doing well socially. But how safe it will be, I don't know. There definitely no longer is any push to suppress the pandemic entirely, it's a collective fail in that regards.

I'm getting my second dose tomorrow, and my wife should have reached close to full immunity by now. Next, the kids, our oldest just turned 12, so he is eligible. It still feels like a gamble. Too many unknowns still and too much conflicting information. Anyway it's his decision to make and there is zero info made available for kids. Pretty poor going imo.



Around the Network
SvennoJ said:

This does raise a moral/ethical question.

Do you let the virus do 'its thing', no more restrictions, since the option is there to get vaccinated if you want / try hard enough. Basically let the anti-vaxers and other hesitant people fend for themselves. (with the risk of creating new strains in the process) And go for herd immunity the hard way.

What about the children though, below 12 aren't getting vaccinated yet and while low occurrence, there are problems with covid in children as well. Plus hospitals will stay busy with covid, pushing other things further and further back.

It seems the USA is done with restrictions, UK as well, the rest can fend for themselves. Canada might be next.

Anyway, instead of getting rid of it / numbers so low it won't flare up again with vaccinations, now it's a wait and see game again whether it's safe to send my youngest back to school. He has to go back regardless, not doing well socially. But how safe it will be, I don't know. There definitely no longer is any push to suppress the pandemic entirely, it's a collective fail in that regards.

I'm getting my second dose tomorrow, and my wife should have reached close to full immunity by now. Next, the kids, our oldest just turned 12, so he is eligible. It still feels like a gamble. Too many unknowns still and too much conflicting information. Anyway it's his decision to make and there is zero info made available for kids. Pretty poor going imo.

The vax doesn't make every last person 100% immune. How do we know this possible, much deadlier mutation, won't come from someone who is already vaxed with their defenses supposedly prepared? Most of the time you don't bother upping your game much unless it becomes necessity, due to efficiency.

Once again, the professionals, told us Canadians it was totally fine to mix n match vaccines and now they're saying not to because it could be a considerable problem. They're also saying not to make your own mind up with this new info, but to look to the experts, who already said it was fine. How many times are they going to flip flop on one thing after another and expect people to believe them strongly enough to get jabbed asap?

You can't blame the people when the trusted sources are constantly showing themselves to be anything but. If the professionals don't look to have a handle on the situation, who then do you trust? Lockdown can't stay in limbo forever, and people can't be forced to take it because that'll just make things far worse.

The way forward is hope for the best because that's always what's going on. The level of control in decades prior, supposedly meant everything was going to be fine, right up until, 9/11, the 2008 economic collapse, and covid-19. Yet somehow, someway, they still happened, and things worked themselves out relatively reasonably, though lessons were learned. It's not exactly comforting, but it is what it is.

Best of luck to you and your family in whatever decisions made.



SvennoJ said:

This does raise a moral/ethical question.

Do you let the virus do 'its thing', no more restrictions, since the option is there to get vaccinated if you want / try hard enough. Basically let the anti-vaxers and other hesitant people fend for themselves. (with the risk of creating new strains in the process) And go for herd immunity the hard way.

What about the children though, below 12 aren't getting vaccinated yet and while low occurrence, there are problems with covid in children as well. Plus hospitals will stay busy with covid, pushing other things further and further back.

I mean...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/new-zealand-children-falling-ill-in-high-numbers-due-to-covid-immunity-debt

https://www.insider.com/rsv-respiratory-virus-is-infecting-children-across-the-south-2021-6

I understand the concern, but it isn't even the most dangerous virus to routinely affect children. Not even close.

I mean, we don't know even if the vaccines will be approved to them. And if they were, is vaccinating children really justifiable when billions of at-risk groups don't have a single dose yet, and we aren't as obsessed about much greater threats to their health?

EricHiggin said:

The vax doesn't make every last person 100% immune. How do we know this possible, much deadlier mutation, won't come from someone who is already vaxed with their defenses supposedly prepared? Most of the time you don't bother upping your game much unless it becomes necessity, due to efficiency.

 

Possible, yes, who knows. Just like it's possible H1N1 becomes like the 1918 strain again. Or adenovirus serotype 14 becomes much more transmissible etc. Is it worth spending time thinking about it, though? We do have emerging evidence, at least, that the virus mutates much less in vaccinated people.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.01.21259833v1

And it can't respond to evolutionary pressure if it doesn't have the time to mutate.



 

 

 

 

 

I got my second dose, it was pretty quiet at the clinic, scaled down a lot since last I was there. They said the uptake of second doses was going very well, but first doses are slowing down. We were already over 75% first doses, and 50% full vaccinated (12 and up) Hopefully it will be enough to get herd immunity together with natural immunity from earlier exposure.

Cases are still going down, there is some concern about the lambda variant having arrived from South America but so far it hasn't really taken off anywhere. Delta variant is still dominant. And some very true words:

“When we look at the big picture of this pandemic, as our vaccinations rise in this country we really, really have to start thinking about the rest of the world from a virus and epidemiological point of view and from an ethical point of view,” said Bowman. “Many places in this world [have] very low vaccination rates…these variants are going to keep coming at us. I would argue that we have an obligation to help other people in this pandemic.”



Data from Chile suggests Lambda is outcompeted by Gamma but perhaps is equal or (slightly) more transmissible than Alpha. Six months back and it'd be an easy VoC. How standards have changed ever since...



 

 

 

 

 

Around the Network
haxxiy said:
EricHiggin said:

The vax doesn't make every last person 100% immune. How do we know this possible, much deadlier mutation, won't come from someone who is already vaxed with their defenses supposedly prepared? Most of the time you don't bother upping your game much unless it becomes necessity, due to efficiency.

 

Possible, yes, who knows. Just like it's possible H1N1 becomes like the 1918 strain again. Or adenovirus serotype 14 becomes much more transmissible etc. Is it worth spending time thinking about it, though? We do have emerging evidence, at least, that the virus mutates much less in vaccinated people.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.01.21259833v1

And it can't respond to evolutionary pressure if it doesn't have the time to mutate.

Exactly. Who knows? That's why everyone has to decide for themselves what's best for them in the end, and hopefully it works out well enough for everyone.

Well the poorly handled lockdowns certainly didn't help. Short minor lockdown after short minor lockdown just gave it more time. Not to mention all the protests and riots. Letting it spread like wildfire wasn't seen as an option though as that would've likely led to more deaths but would have burnt it out, assuming it's not prone to mutating that quickly, in which case we'd have a far bigger problem anyway then.

Lots of easy targets don't require laser focused execution. You can send out the 'troops' of your alliances fairly willy-nilly. However, if you have one strong main enemy, who knows your tactics well, you have to take more time and plan much more to get around their built up defenses with a highly coordinated attack. Sounds like the virus is doing exactly what you'd expect it to so far.

Last week in the news, there were a few stories about Canadians coming back from foreign countries who got vaxed while they were there, and yet their vax isn't being seen as valid by our own health care system. Talk about ridiculous. Countries like China and Russia. Canadians returning to our country had to quarantine for two weeks before they could go home, but the Gov changed that to, as long as they were vaccinated, they could skip quarantine. Well turns out that's only if you've gotten our vax. Which makes you wonder, talking about the odds, why isn't our healthcare system ok with vaxes from other countries? Are they seriously going to ban all of Russia or China? That's obviously highly unlikely, so why make a fuss about other countries vaxes now?

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 14 July 2021

SvennoJ said:

This does raise a moral/ethical question.

Do you let the virus do 'its thing', no more restrictions, since the option is there to get vaccinated if you want / try hard enough. Basically let the anti-vaxers and other hesitant people fend for themselves. (with the risk of creating new strains in the process) And go for herd immunity the hard way.

What about the children though, below 12 aren't getting vaccinated yet and while low occurrence, there are problems with covid in children as well. Plus hospitals will stay busy with covid, pushing other things further and further back.

It seems the USA is done with restrictions, UK as well, the rest can fend for themselves. Canada might be next.

Anyway, instead of getting rid of it / numbers so low it won't flare up again with vaccinations, now it's a wait and see game again whether it's safe to send my youngest back to school. He has to go back regardless, not doing well socially. But how safe it will be, I don't know. There definitely no longer is any push to suppress the pandemic entirely, it's a collective fail in that regards.

I'm getting my second dose tomorrow, and my wife should have reached close to full immunity by now. Next, the kids, our oldest just turned 12, so he is eligible. It still feels like a gamble. Too many unknowns still and too much conflicting information. Anyway it's his decision to make and there is zero info made available for kids. Pretty poor going imo.

I think smokers, boozers, addicts, and those who are obese and don't exercise should pay more taxes. If those who don't wish to take the vaccine end up in the hospital, they should be taxed more. Obviously the issue here is that the majority of unvaccinated people won't need public services to support them unless they get severe or long COVID19, so only start taxing them if they fall ill? I truly believe there should be harsher consequences for anyone who thinks my taxes are there to fund their smoking-induced COPD/diabetes treatments, nothing more off putting than seeing a grown ass adult with a cigarette. 

I don't think vaccines will limit new strains, eventually, the strain that escapes the immune response the vaccine induces, will be the dominant strain and you just can't possibly ask people to keep wearing masks and wash their hands forever, all you'd end up doing is falling severely ill to viruses that were benign before the pandemic. I agree, however, that we still need few more months before opening up to let the vaccines do their job. 

As for children, I think we need more data and solid science on why they're not affected by COVID19 the way adults are and does vaccinating them really offer any added benefit in lower transmission. For example, I remember reading about ACE receptors being genetically less expressed in the young as a major reason for their better immune response against COVID19. I haven't been keeping up so what else have we figured out? Also, we should start sub-categorizing in more sub-groups, instead of just labelling anyone under 18 as a "child". Maybe that's all available science and I am just ignorant, I am sick of keeping up with covid19 lol



LurkerJ said:

nothing more off putting than seeing a grown ass adult with a cigarette. 

Yeah, children smoking cigarettes are sooo much better.



SvennoJ said:

This does raise a moral/ethical question.

Do you let the virus do 'its thing', no more restrictions, since the option is there to get vaccinated if you want / try hard enough. Basically let the anti-vaxers and other hesitant people fend for themselves. (with the risk of creating new strains in the process) And go for herd immunity the hard way.

What about the children though, below 12 aren't getting vaccinated yet and while low occurrence, there are problems with covid in children as well. Plus hospitals will stay busy with covid, pushing other things further and further back.

It seems the USA is done with restrictions, UK as well, the rest can fend for themselves. Canada might be next.

Anyway, instead of getting rid of it / numbers so low it won't flare up again with vaccinations, now it's a wait and see game again whether it's safe to send my youngest back to school. He has to go back regardless, not doing well socially. But how safe it will be, I don't know. There definitely no longer is any push to suppress the pandemic entirely, it's a collective fail in that regards.

I'm getting my second dose tomorrow, and my wife should have reached close to full immunity by now. Next, the kids, our oldest just turned 12, so he is eligible. It still feels like a gamble. Too many unknowns still and too much conflicting information. Anyway it's his decision to make and there is zero info made available for kids. Pretty poor going imo.

No moral question at all: If you are physically capable of getting the vaccine, get the shot. We have plenty of laws in place that people have to abide by for the collective health and safety of the common good, why would this be any different? Folks gotta drive speed limits, obey OHSA regulations, aren't allowed to drink and drive and have to wear seatbelts, you have to be licensed to do a tonne of dangerous things, etc. 

If you're capable of getting a vaccine, it should be mandatory. This 'my body my decision' argument makes sense on the surface but is grossly damning because it's not just your body. Just like it's not just you who's in danger if you drive drunk or operate heavy machinery without a license. If this truly was something that ONLY affected you and had no chance of affecting someone else in any negative way, sure! But that's not the reality of the situation. As long as not getting vaxxed does have a potential impact on others, it should be mandatory. Fullstop. This is not an ethical quandry, it's about as straightforward as can be. 

And the fact that people have actually convinced others that it's an issue of morals or personal liberty makes me sick to my stomach. This is just selfishness and ego and brazen heartlessness towards others masquerading as a battle for freedom. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II, Rock Band 4

So now we're going to control what a woman can or can not do with their body?



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.