By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

donathos said:
JRPGfan said:

Theres places that have had coronavirus, that now no longer have any active cases.
This does infact prove, that its actually possible to completely rid your country of it.
(ofc you'll always be at risk of a new outbreak, but the same is true for other places)

A country not currently having "active cases" does not mean that that country is "completely rid" of the disease. It can still exist in the community, especially given the contagious nature of this particular disease and that people can carry it asymptomatically.

Besides which, the experience of a place like Greenland versus a Brazil or the UK are not easily comparable. Ridding Greenland of active cases does not prove that the same can be done in Russia, for instance, because the challenges and circumstances are vastly different. It's like, if you'll forgive a baseball analogy, because a child can knock a t-ball off it's tee, we don't say that proves the kid is ready for the Majors. Yes, they're both hitting ball with bat, but no, they aren't the same.

Anyway, so far as I know, no one reputable has claimed that this disease can be stopped or eradicated outright. Trump has made noise about the disease simply disappearing, like a miracle, but the closest we'll get to that, imho, is an effective vaccine -- and who knows when that will be available. So I think that means that we must instead decide how best to live in the world, given that this virus persists in the population, and will for the foreseeable future.

I've supported and continue to support various lockdown measures in view of "flattening the curve," so that additional people don't succumb to Covid (or other things) due to overtaxing health resources with a deluge of new infections. But I don't think it's sensible, for instance, to insist on more severe measures so that a country like the United States can completely clear itself of the disease, when I don't think that's a feasible or realistic goal at all. Not even supposing a "total" lockdown, which cannot, after all, truly be total; even Wuhan, it seems, has not completely cleared itself.

If we're going to shift the goalposts -- if we're going to insist on continuing measures that we'd originally instituted to "flatten the curve" for something else -- let's at least do so openly, ensure our new goals are actually attainable, and determine whether the diminishing returns of stopping further spread are worth the necessarily greater price we'd have to pay, not just in coin, but also in peoples' lives and well-being.

You can eliminate community spread, New Zealand and Australia are going for this. It does require closed borders / quarantining everyone that comes in for 2 weeks and always keep on the lookout for symptoms. That's not practical for countries where people work cross borders and have lots of truck freight coming in or going through. There social distancing remains key.

For the USA it's also possible to eliminate community spread, but only when working together to do the same in Mexico and Canada, while mandating that everyone coming in quarantines for 2 weeks. It does require a lot of effort, quarantine hotels next to the airports while eliminating the risk of spreading before incoming travelers get to quarantine. (so you don't have taxi drivers spreading it on and dying as happened with Toronto Pearson drivers)

It's a choice to make. Get rid of community spread while imposing severe restrictions on incoming travelers means you can go back close to normal life inside the country. International tourist industry dead, local can resume, business abroad badly damaged.

Or keep social distancing to keep the spread low, loosening restrictions and tightening them again when local upticks are observed. Tourist industry still pretty much dead both international and national (who wants to risk it), business abroad less damaged and everything in the country will be facing extra measures for years. (Until a vaccine is reached or 70% have anti bodies)

Both options suck and the herd immunity end game isn't guaranteed to work. Vaccines could be a long way off plus how effective they will be is also up in the air. Both options do allow health care to go back to normal yet recession either way. Which is less damaging to the economy remains to be seen, option B kills a lot more people though. However option A is not feasible if the entire population and connecting countries don't work together to achieve it.



Around the Network

Coronavirus death toll passes 300,000 globally.



Wallstreet journal looked into 105 random death certificates from Mexico.
Out of 105, 4 were marked as confirmed covid19 cases, while 64 deaths were labled atypical pneumonia (as cause of death).
So doctors had noted "probably covid19" on 52 of these 64 deaths, but they weren't counted.

So maxico apparently barely tests for covid, and doesnt count what doctors suspect is covid19.

If you go to worldometers.info/coronavirus/ and look at mexico, you'll see ~4220 (currently) deaths as caused by covid19.
Wallstreet journal are saying that number is likely 8-16 times higher (than offical reported numbers).

Source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIh_26HtUw

This just proves that counting, these things vary way to much to compair country to country.
Mexico apparently isnt reporting honestly with infections either, their eager to get economy back on track.

Why do politicans think you can just ignore this? Just manipulate numbers and lie about deaths?
Is this really a viable way to handle a virus outbreak?

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 14 May 2020

SvennoJ said:
donathos said:

A country not currently having "active cases" does not mean that that country is "completely rid" of the disease. It can still exist in the community, especially given the contagious nature of this particular disease and that people can carry it asymptomatically.

Besides which, the experience of a place like Greenland versus a Brazil or the UK are not easily comparable. Ridding Greenland of active cases does not prove that the same can be done in Russia, for instance, because the challenges and circumstances are vastly different. It's like, if you'll forgive a baseball analogy, because a child can knock a t-ball off it's tee, we don't say that proves the kid is ready for the Majors. Yes, they're both hitting ball with bat, but no, they aren't the same.

Anyway, so far as I know, no one reputable has claimed that this disease can be stopped or eradicated outright. Trump has made noise about the disease simply disappearing, like a miracle, but the closest we'll get to that, imho, is an effective vaccine -- and who knows when that will be available. So I think that means that we must instead decide how best to live in the world, given that this virus persists in the population, and will for the foreseeable future.

I've supported and continue to support various lockdown measures in view of "flattening the curve," so that additional people don't succumb to Covid (or other things) due to overtaxing health resources with a deluge of new infections. But I don't think it's sensible, for instance, to insist on more severe measures so that a country like the United States can completely clear itself of the disease, when I don't think that's a feasible or realistic goal at all. Not even supposing a "total" lockdown, which cannot, after all, truly be total; even Wuhan, it seems, has not completely cleared itself.

If we're going to shift the goalposts -- if we're going to insist on continuing measures that we'd originally instituted to "flatten the curve" for something else -- let's at least do so openly, ensure our new goals are actually attainable, and determine whether the diminishing returns of stopping further spread are worth the necessarily greater price we'd have to pay, not just in coin, but also in peoples' lives and well-being.

You can eliminate community spread, New Zealand and Australia are going for this. It does require closed borders / quarantining everyone that comes in for 2 weeks and always keep on the lookout for symptoms. That's not practical for countries where people work cross borders and have lots of truck freight coming in or going through. There social distancing remains key.

For the USA it's also possible to eliminate community spread, but only when working together to do the same in Mexico and Canada, while mandating that everyone coming in quarantines for 2 weeks. It does require a lot of effort, quarantine hotels next to the airports while eliminating the risk of spreading before incoming travelers get to quarantine. (so you don't have taxi drivers spreading it on and dying as happened with Toronto Pearson drivers)

It's a choice to make. Get rid of community spread while imposing severe restrictions on incoming travelers means you can go back close to normal life inside the country. International tourist industry dead, local can resume, business abroad badly damaged.

Or keep social distancing to keep the spread low, loosening restrictions and tightening them again when local upticks are observed. Tourist industry still pretty much dead both international and national (who wants to risk it), business abroad less damaged and everything in the country will be facing extra measures for years. (Until a vaccine is reached or 70% have anti bodies)

Both options suck and the herd immunity end game isn't guaranteed to work. Vaccines could be a long way off plus how effective they will be is also up in the air. Both options do allow health care to go back to normal yet recession either way. Which is less damaging to the economy remains to be seen, option B kills a lot more people though. However option A is not feasible if the entire population and connecting countries don't work together to achieve it.

^ so much that.


Its a choice, either you keep borders closed, and quarantine everyone comeing into the country (~2 weeks), while the people in your own country can stay safe, and free, and liveing like before covid19.

or

You keep social distanceing, while slowly just letting it spread throughout society.
You could have to deal with this crap for years! wearing masks, hand sanitisers, no hand shakeing, 2meters apart, ect ect ect.
The upside is this allows your popuation to travel, and have others visit your place, without needing to enforce quarantines on people (re)entering.


I honestly think going for complete suppression of the virus is the "safer" bet.
Get your country completely free from it, and make sure it doesnt enter.
Why do I think so? because we dont know if herd immunity even works (currently), so why choose to willingly be the test subjects for such?
Its a massive gamble to take with a entire countries population lives and well being.

Also I think you might actually "recover" to a healthy economy sooner, without the virus there, even if this means you have to stay locked up longer.
Haveing to spend potentially years at half speed (social distanceing ect), might long term, be worse for your countries economy.



There is a lot of variation between testing and counting cases and deaths. Trends are a bit more reliable yet also often disturbed by changing and fixing the counts. So take all the graphs with a grain of salt.

Continent comparisons

North America still (barely) outpacing Europe, yet Mexico is likely under reporting. NA is currently at 29.5% of daily reported cases.
Europe is still slowly heading down despite Russia now almost representing half of Europe's daily cases. Europe is at 27.4% of daily reported cases.
Asia is steadily climbing up again (Ramadan effect?). Asia represents 23.4% of daily reported cases.
South America also climbing steadily, adding 18.3% of daily reported cases.
Africa with its spotty testing is also heading up, now representing 3.7% of daily reported cases.
Oceania (pretty much just Australia and New Zealand) has it under control, 0.017% of daily reported cases.

It all adds up to keeping the world count steady at average 87K new cases each day and 4,700 new deaths each day.



Around the Network
Pemalite said:
sethnintendo said:

Australia is smaller than Europe so if you believe there are 7 continents then Australia is the smallest.


Why are we talking geography in the COVID thread?

sethnintendo said:

No clue but I also didn't know Mediterranean and Baltic seas counted as landmasses with you plopping Australia on top of them.  Anyways some say there are 5 and some say 7.

One could discuss how difficult or easy virus can spread based on geographic location.  However since humans travel the globe even more than Spanish flu days being geographic isolated doesn't matter anymore.

Not to get back to this, and I know you can just look up the total area of Europe and Australia on Wikipedia (Europe's bigger), but if you puzzle European countries on top of Australia it matches pretty well, leaving out European Russia (and European Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan). France overlaps stuff, but that's because it has a stupid shape.

Also left out Andorra, San Marino, Monaco, Liechtenstein and Vatican City but those don't exactly make a dent lol. It's interesting though that you can't really puzzle the countries back together, because they don't match anymore; look at the chasm between Poland and Ukraine or example, and Germany isn't scaled right.

But eh, anyway, please ignore my cure to boredom, back to important stuff...



Important stuff like homeschooling :/

Big debate at home about beginner algebra. They're not teaching the basics or any understanding it seems, just tricks to get to the answer which create confusion. It's not good when you can stump the teacher with a simple 3x + 6 = 3, solve x question... Negative numbers seem to be the bottleneck.

Tricks are useful as my other kid got stumped by the math program asking whether the outcome of stuff like
34692374703 + 2368458348 is even or odd. Poor fella was trying to actually add all those numbers up.

It's weird they already get some algebra but never learned basics like multiplication tables. Is that not part of school anymore? I know I had to recite all the tables in grade 3 or 4. Knowing those by heart makes all this school math a lot easier. Like yesterday the young one had questions like what's the mean of 8 9 7 8 6 10 8 8 and 6 7 9 9 5 7 7 6. All sets of 8, all with whole number outcomes, knowing the tables makes it trivial.

The fun continues, one in tears over algebra, the other screaming how stupid it is and more worried about getting a good score in the math program while the seconds tick away...

Oh well, Google can solve it all anyway. Although the way Tiger Algebra does it is even more confusing
https://www.tiger-algebra.com/drill/3x_6=3/



SvennoJ said:
Important stuff like homeschooling :/

Big debate at home about beginner algebra. 

Hah. Brings back memories of FOIL. First, Outer, Inner, Last.



Google updated it's mobility reports (updated to May 7th, last Thursday)
https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/

Canadians aren't waiting for the all clear (I put the old one together with the updated report)

More people are shopping again and a lot more people are visiting the parks again.

Last Friday a few places already opened up like garden centers (after these charts) for curb-side pickup, this coming Monday will be full phase 1 of re-opening.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-significantly-expands-list-of-businesses-that-can-soon-reopen-1.4938939

So far Ontario is still on a downward trend, the trend is already slowing down a bit though.

Currently a modest 20% reduction week over week (today 80% of cases as a week ago) before any effect from Mother's day can be expected. (Numbers here are reported for test resolved the day before, at the earliest yesterday would be when people could start showing symptoms after visiting for mother's day)

Anyway, for now celebrating the lowest reported cases in 6 weeks (258 today) ignoring the over 17.6K pending tests backlog...

No new cases in my local County since the weekend! /knock on wood.



Ka-pi96 said:
SvennoJ said:
It's weird they already get some algebra but never learned basics like multiplication tables. Is that not part of school anymore? I know I had to recite all the tables in grade 3 or 4. Knowing those by heart makes all this school math a lot easier.

People actually memorised those? :O

We had them in school, but they were never really focused on and they were only even in primary school. Never even heard of them again after that and I certainly didn't memorise them. Basic multiplication isn't that hard anyway, you don't need to memorise it. Just use 1x and 10x as a base and you can quickly work out any of the others.

It's for the reverse, like instantly seeing what factors 45 or 56 have for example.

I still 'enjoyed' classic schooling, sitting in rows behind each other, separate desks from grade 3. (Which was grade 1 since the current 1 and 2 were simply called kindergarten) Teacher on a platform and copy what ever the teacher writes on the black board with everyone reciting in unison. It's a little different nowadays lol.

Grade school math has changed as well, long divisions are still the same though. Different notation, same tedious work.
I changed schools midway to an experimental school model, Jenaplan, which was much nicer. The class room setup is pretty similar in public schools nowadays.

(I went to school in the Netherlands btw, my kids are in Canadian public school)