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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

thismeintiel said:
Azzanation said:

Isnt TLOU 2, and Ghost of whatever being developed for PS4 base hardware? You know you won't see another one of those companies for years right? Not when big IPs can take 3 to 5 years to make. I really dont see the issue here.

Not sure what that has to do with devs being held back by being forced to make sure the game runs on outdated Jaguar cores.  TLOU2 and GOT were already being made with PS4 in mind.  It's not like they had a next gen game on PS5 and Sony forced them to make sure it could run on PS4, which is what MS is making them do. 

You are aware that it doesn't have to be the main team that port the game to older consoles and porting the game to older console can all be out source. Also, If devs support older consoles they will be able to sell much more of their game at the same price regardless of which console. So, I don't think any development studios would complain about making their game available to more potential buyers. The switch from one generation to another is actually pretty disruptive for development studios where you go from a very large install base to much smaller one. Especially for 3rd party studios that need to carve an audience for their game. 

This is reverse Xbox one X issue, where every one believed that no devs would scale their game to Xbox one X settings since PS4/PS4 Pro is the market leader. But, they were wrong all of the game this gen played best on Xbox one X and most game where enhanced for the Xbox one X. 

Microsoft plan is to give consumer the option to play at 720P-900P on (OG Xbox), 1080p-4k (XBox one X) or 4K/60fps (Xbox Series X) in the next two years. If you simply don't have the money to upgrade to next gen consoles or kid that parents don't want to pay for a next gen consoles. There, going to be so many people still buying on the older consoles for the next two years. No one left behind is actually a consumer friendly move going forward. Beside if the rumors are to be believe all of the next gen games will be run and look best on Xbox Series X. Xbox Series X will set the benchmark for next games for both 1st & 3rd Parties games. 

 



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Azzanation said:
thismeintiel said:

Not sure what that has to do with devs being held back by being forced to make sure the game runs on outdated Jaguar cores.  TLOU2 and GOT were already being made with PS4 in mind.  It's not like they had a next gen game on PS5 and Sony forced them to make sure it could run on PS4, which is what MS is making them do. 

1 to 2 years is 1 game from a developer. Its basically saying make one more game that also runs on old hardware. Next Halo (7) etc will utilise full hardware specs.

Also lets not forget to run next gen games on old hardware really doesn't take much. Reduce the 4k to 1080p, reduce 60 fps to 30 fps and take out Ray Tracing and you already saved alot of hardware power for older machines. (Obviously there is alot more to it but lets digress)

Gamers need to stop acting like the next group of hybrid games are not going to look good. You can bet your ass Halo Infinite is going to look amazing regardless if its cross gen.

The games won't be built for the Series X and then torn down to work on the XBO.  They will be made to run on the XBO, then put on the Series X.  This is how cross-gen ports are done. Just look at AC:BF and BF4.  They share the same geometry for characters and environments between gens.  The next gen games do have a higher resolution and some textures are improved (not all), and there are a few extra effects, maybe extra foliage.  And no one is saying they look bad by any stretch, but it is not the night and day comparison that we see with, say, Infamous:SS and Infamous 2. 

They can't build this incredible game on the Series X, then easily strip it down to work on the XBO.  There's no guarantee it would work on a much weaker CPU/GPU before you have stripped the game to barely recognizable, read not a likely purchase.  Maybe if it was more like a Series X to a Lockart difference, they could.  But, the systems are miles apart.  

The only other solution is if they got a 2nd studio to work on the XBO version.  But after MS spent all that money buying studios, and more than likely getting moneyhated exclusives for next gen, and wanting to pump out a game every quarter, I highly doubt they want to pump even more money out renting studios to make seperate versions of all their games for the next 2 years.



LudicrousSpeed said:

He said all the games over the next one or two years. Which leaves open the possibility that it’s just games released this year. Launch games, and anything released on Xbone this year. At “worst” it would mean games in the first year of XSX. Not the first two years. So a lot of your games aren’t valid because of release date, they came more than a year after release. 

But really, looking over that list including all the games and also if you look at the first year or two of PS4 first party, exactly what is there that is mind blowing, hardware pushing stuff? It takes a couple years to start to see that type of stuff. So this idea that cross gen games will hold back the XSX is nonsense. Furthermore as we saw with the cross gen games last gen, devs can and will cut up old gen versions or have them gimped in various ways. It happened this gen across different genres.

The people who buy consoles at launch buy them for the graphics and the new features. Did people buy the PS4 at launch because Killzone 7 and Knack were incredible games technology wise, impossible on PS3? No, they bought them because they can play prettier games and had a load of new features like share, suspending games, party chat etc.

Personally I like the idea that if I buy Ori, Bleeding Edge, Gears Tactics, etc in early/mid 2020, I can play them on my XSX day one apparently. Seems like a win for me as a gamer. The logic behind this strategy and embracing GamePass and Xbox as a games service over emphasizing hardware is open to discussion and debate but I don’t see how this can in any way be a negative for gamers?

True. Gen 9 also have the advantage over gen 8 in terms of B/C. For example, Xbox One owner can sell his console to upgrade to Xbox Series X without any hesitation because he knows that all his library will be there on a new console. In 2013, it was hard to justify trading in 360 for Xbox One because you would instantly lose access to your games.

HollyGamer said:

Well, the statement about DirectX is correct. But only if we look back 20 years ago. MS initially entered console market to have developers locked into using DirectX because there was a threat in the face of PS2 to Windows PC market which was their main cash cow back then. As we see, MS actually succeeded in this - DirectX is still being used for making games for PC and Xbox, Windows is still the dominant force in PC OS market. On the other hand, Windows is not a focus for MS anymore, so there is no reason to force developers into using DirectX anymore.

That's why , my question is pointed toward the current market not at the past. In the past, Microsoft were afraid  how console can threatened PC market. But in reality there is no threat from consoles to PC Market and Windows is still selling like hotcakes. The big threat actually coming from Stadia, Steam and GOG and Epic also mobile phones. 

Agree about Stadia and phones. But disagree about PC stores. It doesn't seem like MS thinks about them as a threat especially when they put their games on Steam.



 

HollyGamer said:
What i can see from this strategy is , Microsoft will slow their next gen consoles sales by focusing on their old consoles . Focusing on old hardware. This will not end well for early Xbox X adopter , they will just play Xbox One games with increase resolution and frame rates. Of course Sony will also have some cross gen games, but allowing their first party IP to have exclusivity to next gen only added more value to PS5.

Gamer who already own old consoles and ready to move out to play next gen games will 100% buy PS5 instead Xbox X.

From your scenario your consumer actually only care about graphic and performance, why would would they want to play all their 3rd party games on the inferior PS5. Xbox series X first party will run at resolution, frame rate and performance that can't be match by PS5. The limitation of how good a game look on consoles is the hardware. Your argument that 1st party game will look better on inferior PS5 hardware compare to Xbox Series X just doesn't make sense.

I still think Sony need to walk a fine line because I doubt they will entirely drop PS4/PS4 Pro support, you know that 3rd party will still support the older console after PS5 release. We know that Sony studios are all making games targeting the PS5, but all of these game can be ported to their older consoles. Remains to be seen what Sony will do for owner of older gen that haven't upgrade. 

Does power even matter Nintendo Switch is proof that it doesn't, really the next gen is going to pin Sony exclusive against Microsoft exclusives all of which can be obtain for much cheaper on Microsoft console console due to gamepass. Do you want an inferior PS5 at $399 where you have to buy all the exclusives or a superior Xbox Series X at $499 where all the exclusives come included with gamepass. 




Mr Puggsly said:
goopy20 said:

Kinda looks like it. It seems MS is more interested in having people play their games on Xone and budget gaming pc's than pushing the visuals of the Series X. Sounds like a bad idea, especially if Sony drops a couple of 1st party games that push gaming to a new level.

You're assuming supporting X1 and pushing graphics at the same time is mutually exclusive.

Visuals are the generally the easiest aspect to scale back, refer to Switch. You can have great looking content running on vastly inferior specs. Look at Wolfenstein II on X1X vs Switch. Somehow that great looking shooter works on a portable with a small fraction of power.

Am I the only one thinking about existing comparisons?

Not everything is scalable, though. The massive jump in CPU and storage speed should allow for new experiences that can't be done on current gen consoles. Especially if we are talking about level design (that's supposed to take a massive jump in scale because of SSD), ai, physics etc. The truth is that cross gen titles usually aren't as impressive as the games that skip previous gen consoles. It simply has to do with them running on new engines that allow for things not possible on previous gen hardware.   



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yvanjean said:
HollyGamer said:
What i can see from this strategy is , Microsoft will slow their next gen consoles sales by focusing on their old consoles . Focusing on old hardware. This will not end well for early Xbox X adopter , they will just play Xbox One games with increase resolution and frame rates. Of course Sony will also have some cross gen games, but allowing their first party IP to have exclusivity to next gen only added more value to PS5.

Gamer who already own old consoles and ready to move out to play next gen games will 100% buy PS5 instead Xbox X.

From your scenario your consumer actually only care about graphic and performance, why would would they want to play all their 3rd party games on the inferior PS5. Xbox series X first party will run at resolution, frame rate and performance that can't be match by PS5. The limitation of how good a game look on consoles is the hardware. Your argument that 1st party game will look better on inferior PS5 hardware compare to Xbox Series X just doesn't make sense.

I still think Sony need to walk a fine line because I doubt they will entirely drop PS4/PS4 Pro support, you know that 3rd party will still support the older console after PS5 release. We know that Sony studios are all making games targeting the PS5, but all of these game can be ported to their older consoles. Remains to be seen what Sony will do for owner of older gen that haven't upgrade. 

Does power even matter Nintendo Switch is proof that it doesn't, really the next gen is going to pin Sony exclusive against Microsoft exclusives all of which can be obtain for much cheaper on Microsoft console console due to gamepass. Do you want an inferior PS5 at $399 where you have to buy all the exclusives or a superior Xbox Series X at $499 where all the exclusives come included with gamepass. 


Oh, man, you got the detailed specs of both machines?  Do share.



thismeintiel said:
Azzanation said:

1 to 2 years is 1 game from a developer. Its basically saying make one more game that also runs on old hardware. Next Halo (7) etc will utilise full hardware specs.

Also lets not forget to run next gen games on old hardware really doesn't take much. Reduce the 4k to 1080p, reduce 60 fps to 30 fps and take out Ray Tracing and you already saved alot of hardware power for older machines. (Obviously there is alot more to it but lets digress)

Gamers need to stop acting like the next group of hybrid games are not going to look good. You can bet your ass Halo Infinite is going to look amazing regardless if its cross gen.

The games won't be built for the Series X and then torn down to work on the XBO.  They will be made to run on the XBO, then put on the Series X.  This is how cross-gen ports are done. Just look at AC:BF and BF4.  They share the same geometry for characters and environments between gens.  The next gen games do have a higher resolution and some textures are improved (not all), and there are a few extra effects, maybe extra foliage.  And no one is saying they look bad by any stretch, but it is not the night and day comparison that we see with, say, Infamous:SS and Infamous 2. 

They can't build this incredible game on the Series X, then easily strip it down to work on the XBO.  There's no guarantee it would work on a much weaker CPU/GPU before you have stripped the game to barely recognizable, read not a likely purchase.  Maybe if it was more like a Series X to a Lockart difference, they could.  But, the systems are miles apart.  

The only other solution is if they got a 2nd studio to work on the XBO version.  But after MS spent all that money buying studios, and more than likely getting moneyhated exclusives for next gen, and wanting to pump out a game every quarter, I highly doubt they want to pump even more money out renting studios to make seperate versions of all their games for the next 2 years.

I don't know what industry you work in but that not how game development work. Game are develop for target specs and graphic & performance can be scaled down to port on weaker consoles. Just think about all the recent port to the Nintendo Switch. They can strip enhancement layers by layers in order to work on weaker consoles. 

It's funny because your clearly wrong and striping down is exactly what they do. Guess what current gen and Nintendo Switch system are miles apart yet game can be ported to the nintendo Switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqTaot5V9B8



yvanjean said:
thismeintiel said:

The games won't be built for the Series X and then torn down to work on the XBO.  They will be made to run on the XBO, then put on the Series X.  This is how cross-gen ports are done. Just look at AC:BF and BF4.  They share the same geometry for characters and environments between gens.  The next gen games do have a higher resolution and some textures are improved (not all), and there are a few extra effects, maybe extra foliage.  And no one is saying they look bad by any stretch, but it is not the night and day comparison that we see with, say, Infamous:SS and Infamous 2. 

They can't build this incredible game on the Series X, then easily strip it down to work on the XBO.  There's no guarantee it would work on a much weaker CPU/GPU before you have stripped the game to barely recognizable, read not a likely purchase.  Maybe if it was more like a Series X to a Lockart difference, they could.  But, the systems are miles apart.  

The only other solution is if they got a 2nd studio to work on the XBO version.  But after MS spent all that money buying studios, and more than likely getting moneyhated exclusives for next gen, and wanting to pump out a game every quarter, I highly doubt they want to pump even more money out renting studios to make seperate versions of all their games for the next 2 years.

I don't know what industry you work in but that not how game development work. Game are develop for target specs and graphic & performance can be scaled down to port on weaker consoles. Just think about all the recent port to the Nintendo Switch. They can strip enhancement layers by layers in order to work on weaker consoles. 

It's funny because your clearly wrong and striping down is exactly what they do. Guess what current gen and Nintendo Switch system are miles apart yet game can be ported to the nintendo Switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqTaot5V9B8

And the ports for Switch usually come months/years after the original games when we are talking AAA games.  They have the time and resources to fine tune the game to work on the Switch.  The games we are talking about are, more than likely, going to be launching the exact same week.  They won't be given that extra time, especially with the game every quarter MS is aiming for.  Again, look at the cross-gen games that launched this gen.

Also, the Switch is a pretty capable HH, especially when docked.  The CPU is pretty capable when compared to the PS4/XBO, as the Jaguar cores aren't anything special.  And the GPU in the XBO is probably something like 3x the power of the Switch's.  When talking XBO vs XBSX, we're talking about a huge leap.  The Ryzen cores offer a gigantic leap over the Jaguar ones.  And the GPU has already been stated to be more than 8x the power of the one in the XBO.  Simply scaling things down isn't going to be an easy task.  Maybe even impossible.  That's why cross-gen usually start with the lowest common denominator, unless built by a completely different team.



LudicrousSpeed said:
Barkley said:

If this is actually accurate and holds true it would be unusual.

The first 2 years of 1st party XBO:

XBO Exclusive

Forza 5
Killer Instinct
Ryse Son of Rome
Zoo Tycoon
Project Spark
Sunset Overdrive
Halo MCC
Ori and the Blind Forest
State of Decay Year One
Rare Replay
Gears of War Ultimate
Forza 6
Halo 5

360+XBO

Forza Horizon 2

Only one of their games was on both 360 and XBO.

I'm not sure if this is a wise move or not.

He said all the games over the next one or two years. Which leaves open the possibility that it’s just games released this year. Launch games, and anything released on Xbone this year. At “worst” it would mean games in the first year of XSX.

Yeah you're right, I took it as first 2 years of XBX rather than the 2 years following his statement.



thismeintiel said: 

Oh, man, you got the detailed specs of both machines?  Do share.

Well everything is rumored and speculation except:

Microsoft quote: The new Xbox Series X. Fastest and most powerful.   

Sony --> Jim Ryan was quoted last month about their desire to move PS4 players to PS5 "at a scale and pace we've never delivered on before".

He went on to say "When we look at this transition and the ambition to do things at a scale and pace that we haven't seen, we have to look at ourselves and make certain changes."

Every thing else people might say is clearly rumors and speculation except for these quotes. The only thing we know for sure is that Xbox Series X will be more powerful and will most certainly cost more.