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gtotheunit91 said:
jason1637 said:

Yeah games like Fornite set a new bar for a live service game where there is something new almost daily.

Yeah, which does make other studios look bad until you realize that Epic has over a thousand developers working on Fortnite at any given time nowadays. Even back in March 2018, they had almost 700 developers working on the game after it started to blow up, which is more than what 343 has total now.

Plus it also doesn't help that 343 is barely getting into the live service space, so there were many more growing pains than they even anticipated. 

Ryuu96 said:
jason1637 said:

Yeah games like Fornite set a new bar for a live service game where there is something new almost daily.

Definitely but it comes at a cost, back in 2018, Epic had 700 employees and "the majority" work on Fortnite which comes with the cost of Epic not doing anything but Fortnite and reportedly Epic has had nasty crunch in the past as a result of Fortnite.

Also Unreal Engine seems to be a lot better than Slipspace, Lol.

I think if Microsoft wants to even come close to Epic's levels but also avoid that level of crunch, they're going to have to expand 343i further, by comparison, 343i has 541 employees listed on Linkedin but reportedly it's about 600+, however they're split between Infinite, Multi-Media (TV Show, Comics, Books, etc) and Spinoffs (Reportedly one in development) and when you add on the contractor issue which causes 343i to lose vital employees, it makes you question why isn't 343 just hiring these people on a permanent basis? Do they not have the resources to support that?

Bungie also had over 800 employees for the majority of Destiny 2's lifespan (now 1,200) and have expressed multiple times the desire to expand more but needing the funds to do so, hence why they were looking for investments and eventually sold to Sony.

I've said it before, I think 343 is slightly understaffed and I think they need either a 2nd studio or someone to come on as a development partner in a more significant way, Certain Affinity only loans about 100 employees for Halo Infinite, I don't know how much outsourcing Bungie or Epic use.

Yeah live services takes a lot of manpower and are hard to oversea and maintain long term, that's why we see a lot of live service flops these days. 

This also explains how Activision got devoured by the live service model with a lot of their studios turning into CoD support studios, and even that's not enough since they recently opened up another CoD studio in Canada.

343i is super understaffed and it's obvious they weren't ready to go full live service with how Halo Infinite launch. I'm surprised how Rare has been able to manage staying smaller than 343i while supporting SoT. But I guess that's starting to effect them too since we're hearing that Everwild is having development issues.

Last edited by jason1637 - on 30 March 2022

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jason1637 said:

Yeah live services takes a lot of manpower and are hard to oversea and maintain long term, that's why we see a lot of live service flops these days. 

This also explains how Activision got devoured by the live service model with a lot of their studios turning into CoD support studios, and even that's not enough since they recently opened up another CoD studio in Canada.

343i is super understaffed and it's obvious they weren't ready to go full live service with how Halo Infinite launch. I'm surprised how Rare has been able to manage staying smaller than 343i while supporting SoT. But I guess that's starting to effect them too since we're hearing that Avowed is having development issues.

Are you referring to Everwild? Avowed is being worked on by Obsidian Entertainment and I don't think I've heard of development issues to this point lol

But you're right. It's absurd how many devs Activision has dedicated to CoD. I have no idea how Microsoft will manage that getting other studios like Beenox, Toys for Bob, High Moon Studios, etc. back on other IP's lol



Lol yeah i mean' t Everwild not Avowed.



Ryuu96 said:

Actually thought Bungie was still at 800 so when I just checked and saw they're now at 1,200 it was a bit of a surprise, Lol.

But I know for certain that for most of Destiny's 2 development they were over 800 and almost all of them were on Destiny 2 because the new IP was in early pre-production and this doesn't even take into account how much outsourcing they're doing right now which I don't know.

They're probably going to be close to 2,000 when they get that new IP in proper development.

Dunno why Microsoft isn't doing a Bioware with 343 or W/E and setting them up another studio in a location with a lot of talent rather than localised only to Redmond. I know it could be said that they don't deserve it but Jason Schierer straight up said that one of the major issues with Halo Infinite's development was the contractor issue wherein Microsoft has to let contractors go after a certain period and then they can't be rehired for a certain period - Why is 343 not hiring them on a permanent basis?

Sketch's comment in that article makes me convinced even more that 343 is understaffed when he says stuff like "I think it just kind of starts to boil down to a capacity issue. You know, how many people and resources can you throw at a problem?"

Sure 343 has screwed up a few times but they've definitely made Microsoft a good amount of money, from a purely business perspective I don't know how they could argue against a 2nd studio, especially when you have someone like InXile who has very little experience or next to none with creating an AAA RPG getting a brand new, quite large, studio throw at them and tons of cash, Lol.

Do you think.....Microsoft just doesn't care as much about Halo anymore???

Lol jk, I'm convinced it's 343 management. They've needed to be replaced for a long time by now lol. Joe Staten was a good start but we can see the disarray the studio was in during development. To think it had a full year extra development time and it still probably needed another year  

It makes you wonder if Xbox was offering 343 to have a support studio or bring on contractors full time, but they just kept turning down the offers? Because it's insane to me to think how many support studios and new hires studios like inXile, Undead Labs, and Compulsion have gotten when they still have a lot to proove.



Ryuu96 said:

It's also why acquiring Certain Affinity would be smart.

If they're totally onboard with all of this of course, I would acquire them, dump all their side projects, split them into two core teams, one which works on original content and the other half is a fulltime Halo studio, they aren't just hired and brought onboard when 343 needs them at the tail end of development but a fulltime partner.

Gives Xbox a foothold in Texas, a location they aren't in yet, ripe for expansion, Microsoft uses their wicked employee benefits and such to poach employees from other studios, Texas has a lot of talent in it, if Compulsion can do it, Certain Affinity under Microsoft can too, Lol. Plus Certain Affinity already comes from a position of having heavy experience working on Halo, they understand the engine, they understand Halo.

I mean, technically Xbox does have a foothold in Texas through Bethesda with BGS Austin and Dallas, id Software, and Arkane Austin.

But there's definitely a LOT of potential in Texas for future video game expansion. Texas is insanely huge in the tech industry. I know you've got Gearbox Software up in Frisco north of Dallas where Intel and other big tech companies have offices at. 



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twintail said:
shikamaru317 said:

The Halo situation saddens me greatly. Halo Infinite could have been something special, a game that would have revived Halo popularity in a big way, at least to Reach levels of popularity even if Halo 3 levels weren't possible. Instead we got a game that is light on all forms of content at release except for microtransactions. And even now, more than 4 months after multiplayer launch, they still seem to be doggedly sticking to a microtransaction cosmetics first, maps/modes/weapons/vehicles/etc. later model when it comes to prioritization for what content they develop, even though the fans are screaming for more content of substance. I like to think that Halo Infinite can make a full recovery from this disastrous first season eventually, but the truth is this game's multiplayer is never going to be as big as it could have been had they done things right to start with, they have just lost too many players (Steam down to just 10k peak concurrent players now, less than Halo MCC had before Infinite launched; Xbox down to #14 on the US most played charts, FH5 has passed it now with a #12 ranking, UK all the way down to #25), and it is always harder to win back lost players than it is to keep the players you have.

For some reason I thought they had 'solved' the issues with the MP. But I'm sure Halo being Halo can recover.

That is the problem with the new COD fan base.  After a month they want something new, some new trinket.  343 is not the size of COD so they were never going to pump out content on such a regular tight schedule that take 9 studios or 1K developers to produce.  In the end does it really matter.  If you enjoy playing the game then play it for the enjoyment instead of crying that they are not producing content fast enough for you.  If that is the case, probably best to go to COD, Destiny, Fortnite etc.



Ryuu96 said:

It's also why acquiring Certain Affinity would be smart.

If they're totally onboard with all of this of course, I would acquire them, dump all their side projects, split them into two core teams, one which works on original content and the other half is a fulltime Halo studio, they aren't just hired and brought onboard when 343 needs them at the tail end of development but a fulltime partner.

Gives Xbox a foothold in Texas, a location they aren't in yet, ripe for expansion, Microsoft uses their wicked employee benefits and such to poach employees from other studios, Texas has a lot of talent in it, if Compulsion can do it, Certain Affinity under Microsoft can too, Lol. Plus Certain Affinity already comes from a position of having heavy experience working on Halo, they understand the engine, they understand Halo.

Vitally, they understand the engine, an issue with having your own in-house engine is every new person you hire has to spend months getting up to speed with your engine, whereas everyone knows Unreal Engine, Certain Affinity has worked on Halo for years, that is likely not an issue for them or an issue which isn't that big.

It's why studios like CDPR are ditching their engine in favour of Unreal Engine, cause practically every developer already knows Unreal Engine, in-house engines just make this contract rule even more of a pain in the ass but I have to assume that 343 is using Slipspace over Unreal Engine for good reason and ultimately decided it would be better in the long run.

As I have stated multiple times MS needs to buy Skybox Labs, I think that Cartain Affinity will likely happen down the road but I doubt that they would want to get bought and continue to be a support studio. Max has stated multiple times that they want to develop AAA games.

343 is also criminally undersized, it’s crazy that a studio like Beenox who do mostly support is going to be bigger than 343 when MS acquire ActiBlizz. The Coalition are also undersized as well imo and need to expand.



Ryuu96 said:

At the moment, “Halo Infinite” does not meet the standards set by other live service games, all of which had their own troubled launch periods, with few recovering over time. And game developers at 343 Industries agree.

“Frankly, there’s also some fantastic games in this [live service] space that have set an incredibly high bar that are very mature, that have been running in a live service capacity for a long time,” said Brian Jarrard, a.k.a. Sketch, community director at 343 Industries. “And that’s the bar that a lot of players for every game look at. And we’re not we’re not quite there yet.

“At the end of the day, I think it just kind of starts to boil down to a capacity issue. You know, how many people and resources can you throw at a problem? And then what other problems are you having to defer to go after this thing at this at this given moment?”

French said launching without Forge broke his heart because he understands how integral it is to the game’s life span and 343′s plans to turn “Halo Infinite” into a decade-long platform. French said he was proud of the success they found in Forge, and his current job has been to extend that success.

“Forge is going to be amazing,” he said in an interview with The Washington Post in early March. “ ‘Halo 5’ Forge was a generational leap of what you can do … and this is going to be that and probably plus. We rebuilt everything from the modes and we thought about how we architected modes so that they’re more extensible and reusable. We can reuse parts across things to build new modes faster and strong and make them more bulletproof and shippable.”

French said the last Forge update was “Halo 5” being “pushed to the seams.”

“We could not fit any more objects into the game because it would breaks maps,” French said. “Literally I had to go through and prune content and we had to reduce polygon count on things, all kinds of technical, nerdy stuff to make it all fit into the engine. But we could not fit any more into there.”

Replicating that success in a live service game has proven difficult since many things had to be re-engineered. Letting players run wild with the game’s physics, graphics and engine needs fine-tuning, which is why the feature has been delayed for “Infinite” to a still-unspecified date.

Any criticism of “Halo Infinite” today almost always comes with a caveat: The core gameplay and mechanics of “Halo” are airtight, sound and practically perfect. It’s also the heart of the frustration, since all the nuts and bolts feel in place today, yet we have to wait for 343 Industries to build on that foundation to give us a game that will be, as French called it, extensible and reusable.

As of early March, French said many features are being worked on “simultaneously.”

“We’ll be talking about that soon. There will be new maps, there’ll be new modes, there’ll be new experiences, there’ll be new features,” French said. “There will be improving [of] the experiences we shipped. … It’s improving our platform, strengthening the foundation, and that includes things like ranked. We know we can make it better, we dreamed of it being better. Let’s push it in that direction.”

‘Halo Infinite’ Fell Into The Live Service Trap. Everyone Hopes It Gets Out Soon.

I've actually said this a few times myself. Halo Infinite as a live service game is not good. Hope 343 gets a wrangle on content output, it's been slow going so far. 



wasn't that last game garbage that was on game pass last year?



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Xbox’s Fall/Holiday season is looking more and more stacked. A bit too stacked if Redfall and Forza Motorsport do make this holiday season as well.