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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official Thread: The Impeachment of President Donald Trump

Biggerboat1 said:
fatslob-:O said:

Don't you get it ? It's not about who to blame ... 

It's about what Trump represents and it's that he represents America with all of it's idiosyncrasies and beliefs too. If Trump loses then America loses as well because it's own people doubt the very institutions behind their systems thus potentially undoing their project to democratize the whole world ... 

Would you rather see America keep losing in the world if it means you wanting to see Trump losing so badly ? America facing defeat behind the very foundations they've built upon the world so far means victory for the communist middle kingdom regime! 

Are you saying Donald Trump represents America in the most literal sense - i.e. he was voted in as President? If you mean it in a more general sense, we know he lost the popular vote so you could say Hillary would have been a more accurate representation of the country...

Are you also saying that any legitimate takedown of a high ranking government figure is bad for democracy? Surely that shows that democracy has the ability to police itself and weed out it's corrupt parts?

I guess I just don't agree with your premise that Trump losing equates to democracy or the US losing...

^ that.

A working democracy weeds out corruption.
The elected is supposed to represent the people, ei. they work for them, not abuse them or the powers their given.



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drinkandswim said:
There is absolutely nothing impeachable here. No crime has been proven. The same people that think Trump is guilty are the same people that didn’t want him elected in the first place.

Say you catch a bank robber, before hes out of the bank with the money.
Do you go "oh no harm done, he never took any money".

Or lets say a bank robber, is about to get caught by the police, and puts the money back in the back vault.

You see where Im going with this?
Trump only said he didnt want a quid-pro-quo after, the media got news of him potentially breaking the law.
Before then, he was telling his personal aid, to speak on his behalf to get this deal done.

This is how Trump works.
Indirectly, to break the law.

Then if it goes badly, he can always just throw people under the bus.
"I hardly knew the guy" "who?" "dont know him" "never met them" "I dont recall" ect ect.

Its all just excuses, he full well knows when hes breaking the law.

Thats why you see so many people leave the white house, or become implicated in crimes.
How many people working for Trump are now in jail? (because of him)

Remember that quote "I know all the best people" "we ll drain that swamp"  (trump is the swamp, and his best people are all crooks working for him)

edit:

"No crime has been proven."

Actually people in hearings have said they tried to commit a crime, and claimed it was at trumps behalf.
And theres evidence that seems to point that way.

The fact that it never came to be, is besides the point.
Ei. leading back to the backrobber exsamples above.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 06 December 2019

RolStoppable said:
Runa216 said:
I don't get it. Bill Clinton had an affair with a white house clerk and got impeached. (Seriously, on the scale of scandals, that's like a 1.2/10), but Trump has done ALL OF THIS and continues to put your country into the state it's in through treason, xenophobia, all the bigotries, and a clear hatred for any but the upper class...and it's taking us almost four years to get this close?

HOW?!

Frankly I'm amazed nobody's shot the moron, yet.

The Super Bowl halftime show with Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake was a bigger problem than anything Trump has done, be it individual goofs or all of it combined.

^ sad state of affairs that people are so scared of a single boob being shown, that its apparently a bigger deal to americans.

That quote by trump claiming he could walk down a street and shoot someone and get away with it, because people love him so much seems true.



Well most reasonable people dont think investigating corruption is a crime. Only the people that hate Trump believe that. Trump didnt need dirt on Biden. He was investigating to see if the dirt was true. Because that was the actual potential crime. Not investigating it. Plus it has not been proven that aid was held back for this investigation. Actually the OMB testified it was due to general corruption concerns with Ukraine.



Biggerboat1 said:

Are you saying Donald Trump represents America in the most literal sense - i.e. he was voted in as President? If you mean it in a more general sense, we know he lost the popular vote so you could say Hillary would have been a more accurate representation of the country...

Are you also saying that any legitimate takedown of a high ranking government figure is bad for democracy? Surely that shows that democracy has the ability to police itself and weed out it's corrupt parts?

I guess I just don't agree with your premise that Trump losing equates to democracy or the US losing...

Both literally and figuratively. Trump is an example of what democracy has to offer ... 

Impeachment is also a 'political' process, not a 'legal' process so calling it a takedown is a bit much ... 

If democracies can't get people to trust in their own nation's institutions in spite of the fact that people like Trump do get elected then it is a system of governance that becomes unsustainable ... 

What does America mean to the rest of the world if it constantly keeps selling the idea of democracy to other nations but they themselves fail to follow it ? Why should the other nations adopt democracy when it is clearly a failure that didn't do what it was designed for when the other world power is showing another path to governance where their own version of 'socialism' is proving to be more stable and potentially more effective ? 

JRPGfan said:

Thats the most absurbly stupid arguement against a impeachment I think is possible fatslob.
The fearmongering about communist is overblown for one thing, and two even the president shouldnt be above the law.

Trump keeps danceing around our the edges and doing shady things he knows he shouldnt because he believes hes above the law.
Remember the remark about him being able to walk down a street and shoot someone and no one would care? people love him so much.

Your proveing his point.

I'm not fearmongering about naive version of communism since it mostly leads to ruin but rather the middle kingdom's managed version of communism which could lead to the most powerful state in the not too distant future ... 

Yes the president shouldn't be above the law but that doesn't give the opposition in congress to be above democracy because a seething desire to put their political opponent in prison through illegitimate ways means that their no better than the police state at the other side of the world ... 

Getting rid of Trump means also getting rid of a feature like 'democracy' because at the end of the day what's preventing the public from voting people like him into power ? Trump getting defeated means liberal democracy meets a symbolic defeat in the world ...

RolStoppable said:

That reads like a variation of the reasoning to put Hitler in power in the 1930s.

Looking back, Hitler didn't necessarily get everything wrong because some of the ideas he put into practice are now in the hands of a geopolitical rival who has potential to become the next superpower ... 

The middle kingdom could ultimately validate quite a bit of Hitler's thinking which means he had the right concept all along. If western world want to be taken over by idiocy then the middle kingdom no matter how socially oppressive they are means that they are the only sane civilization left ... 



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fatslob-:O said:
Machiavellian said:

Trump going down has more to do with him being the complete moron then anything else you or John can think up.  We are here today because of how incompetent this whole Ukraine situation was handled by Trump and his administration.  This whole narrative, of socialist this, liberal that is just another way to deflect from an obvious idiotic handling of another situation that continue to baffle me on why people consider this moron capable of anything more than screwing shit up as he has shone throughout his life.

Oh well keep looking for ways to move the blame to everyone else besides the one person who got us here.

Don't you get it ? It's not about who to blame ... 

It's about what Trump represents and it's that he represents America with all of it's idiosyncrasies and beliefs too. If Trump loses then America loses as well because it's own people doubt the very institutions behind their systems thus potentially undoing their project to democratize the whole world ... 

Would you rather see America keep losing in the world if it means you wanting to see Trump losing so badly ? America facing defeat behind the very foundations they've built upon the world so far means victory for the communist middle kingdom regime! 

I am sorry but Trump doesn't represent America.  Trump was elected to a position and just like any elected individual, he can be removed from office if he doesn't do his job.  Basically what you are saying is that Trump is above the constitution which we have lived our lives in the US for centuries.  No one man or woman can represent America, its the reason we have that document that sets limits on the power and removal of that one person.

As to your second paragraph, I have no clue what you are talking about.  You are putting Trump on some type of pedestal.  As I stated, the reason we are here is because of Trump himself.  He got us here because he did not respect the institution of the job he holds. His incompetence and moronic ability to wade into things without thinking cause him to ignore all the signs he was wading into dangerous waters.  All this middle kingdom stuff you are throwing out means nothing when the person you are defending isn't smart enough to handle something as basic as this situation without crossing the line.  



The Constitution Article 2 Section 3 actually states it is the President’s job to make sure laws are being properly enforced. So maybe you all need to read the Constitution. Trump did nothing more than follow his oath of office.



drinkandswim said:

Well most reasonable people dont think investigating corruption is a crime. Only the people that hate Trump believe that. Trump didnt need dirt on Biden. He was investigating to see if the dirt was true. Because that was the actual potential crime. Not investigating it. Plus it has not been proven that aid was held back for this investigation. Actually the OMB testified it was due to general corruption concerns with Ukraine.

What other issues regarding corruption in Ukraine has Trump specifically expressed concern over?



drinkandswim said:

The Constitution Article 2 Section 3 actually states it is the President’s job to make sure laws are being properly enforced. So maybe you all need to read the Constitution. Trump did nothing more than follow his oath of office.

I've read the constitution plenty in law school.  The laws being referred to in that passage refer to the laws of the United States.  What federal law exactly was he enforcing? What in the constitution or federal common law would give him the authority to withhold congressional appropriated funds to do so?  I look forward to what I am sure will be a spirited and respectful debate with an opponent that is surely well versed in constitutional law :)! I really look forward to learning from you, as you seem to have a firmer grasp of the constitution than the professors at top law schools!  https://medium.com/@legalscholarsonimpeachment/letter-to-congress-from-legal-scholars-6c18b5b6d116 I have finals next week so this will be such a HUGE help for me! 



drinkandswim said:

The Constitution Article 2 Section 3 actually states it is the President’s job to make sure laws are being properly enforced. So maybe you all need to read the Constitution. Trump did nothing more than follow his oath of office.

Would that not be Laws in the US, not another country.  If you are going to start listing sections of the Constitution, it would be good to know what they pertain to.  No one is not saying that Trump as President does not have the authority to work with foreign governments, its when he tries to use his office for his own political gain is why we are hear.  The silly part is even if you believe Trump was somehow concerned about corruption within Ukraine, to only want a public statement that they are investigating a political rival doesn't even take that much of a leap to see that Trump cared very little about corruption and more about setting up a smear campaign.  I guess if you want to continue to deceive yourself that this was all for corruption then so be it but you have a lot of testimony to counter a lot of that.