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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why are democrats wasting time with Trump's impeachment?

thismeintiel said:
SpokenTruth said:

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman:
Background: Army Officer, Purple Heart recipient for armed combat in Iraq, numerous commendations and meritorious medals, Foreign Area Officer for U.S. embassies in Ukraine and Russia, Military Affairs Officer for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, delegation for the National Security Council to Ukraine.
Relevance: Was one of several that personally listened in on the infamous phone call between Trump and Ukrainian president Zelensky.
Statements: "What I heard was inappropriate and I reported it […] out of a sense of duty," because "the connection to investigate a political opponent was inappropriate and improper."

"...in order to get the White House meeting, President Zelensky would have to deliver these investigations."

Jennifer Williams:
Background: Bachelor's Degree in international security from Georgetown University, Master's degree in public policy from Princeton University, political appointee to the Secretary of Homeland Security by former President Bush, 13 years at the Department of State for Middle East and Near Eastern Affairs, special advisor to Vice President Mike Pence on European and Russian affairs.
Relevance: Williams accompanied Pence to Poland to meet with Zelensky regarding the $400 million in military aid and she was also one of several that personally listened in on the phone call between Trump and Zelensky.
Statements: "[the call] involved discussion of what appeared to be a domestic political matter."

Gordon Sondland:
Background: Hotel real estate businessman, Oregon liaison to the White House, appointed a member of the Commission on White House Fellows by former president Bush, worked on Mitt Romney's presidential transition team, donated $1 million to Trump's inaugural committee, appointed by Trump as U.S. ambassador to the European Union.
Relevance: Worked directly with Trump, Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, U.S. Department of Energy Secretary Rick Perry, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and U.S. National Security Advisor John Bolton on Ukrainian matters.
Statements: "[Coordinated] at the express direction of the president of the United States."

“[We] worked with Mr. Rudy Giuliani on Ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the United States.”

"I know that members of this Committee have frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a ‘quid pro quo? As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and White House meeting, the answer is yes.”

"Mr. Giuliani’s requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky. Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing investigations of the 2016 election/DNC server and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the President of the United States, and we knew that these investigations were important to the President."

“Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret.”

“They knew what we were doing and why.” "My lawyers and I have made multiple requests to the State Department and the White House for these materials. Yet, these materials were not provided to me. They have also refused to share these materials with this committee.”

“Simply put, we played the hand we were dealt. We all understood that if we refused to work with Mr. Giuliani, we would lose an important opportunity to cement relations between the United States and Ukraine. So we followed the president’s orders.”

“Ukrainians needed those funds to fight against Russian aggression. I tried diligently to ask why the aid was suspended, but I never received a clear answer.”

“In the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid, I later came to believe that the resumption of security aid would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations of the 2016 election and Burisma, as Mr. Giuliani had demanded.”

What you got, Snoopy?

The first one was their star "witness," who actually witnessed nothing.  The 2nd is their most credible witness, the only one who had any first hand interactions with Trump concerning this matter.  Both of their arguments were torn to pieces.

AbrahamHamdan said:

ok... I've been longing to catch a republican...

sir, do you know exactly what the president did?

you do know he ask foreign country to investigate a political rival? and you know that illegal right?

I need an answer sir.

Well, if you want to believe the Dems argument that is completely based on presumptions and feelings, not evidence, you can believe in anything you want.  However, if you just want to look at the actual evidence given, that never happened.  The truth is, the Dems are scared to death about 2020.  That's why, just one year out from an election where the people could vote him out if they believe this stuff happened, they are pursuing impeachment.  They are afraid of 100s of thousands, maybe millions, of people like me, Never Trumpers who wouldn't vote for him in 2016, but will vote for him this time.  And his growing support among Black Americans.

Jim Jordan is a asshole a terrible politician and way up Trumps ass the only politician up higher Trumps ass are Linsey Graham and Mitch McConnell.



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DryHeat said:

I think there are several reasons. First, Democrats are deathly afraid that Trump is going to get reelected next year, second they hate Trump's guts so it feels good to try to "stick it to him". Ironically, this is going to help Republicans in 2020, especially in the house.

There was not one single witness that directly heard Trump demand that the aid be withheld until they investigated Biden. Not a single one. It was all hearsay, assumptions and guesses. You don't impeach a president on hearsay, assumptions and guesses.

Did you actually read the transcript or are you like all the Republicans and want to ignore the truth.  Trump is and was a criminal for most of his life.



thismeintiel said:
SpokenTruth said:

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman:
Background: Army Officer, Purple Heart recipient for armed combat in Iraq, numerous commendations and meritorious medals, Foreign Area Officer for U.S. embassies in Ukraine and Russia, Military Affairs Officer for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, delegation for the National Security Council to Ukraine.
Relevance: Was one of several that personally listened in on the infamous phone call between Trump and Ukrainian president Zelensky.
Statements: "What I heard was inappropriate and I reported it […] out of a sense of duty," because "the connection to investigate a political opponent was inappropriate and improper."

"...in order to get the White House meeting, President Zelensky would have to deliver these investigations."

Jennifer Williams:
Background: Bachelor's Degree in international security from Georgetown University, Master's degree in public policy from Princeton University, political appointee to the Secretary of Homeland Security by former President Bush, 13 years at the Department of State for Middle East and Near Eastern Affairs, special advisor to Vice President Mike Pence on European and Russian affairs.
Relevance: Williams accompanied Pence to Poland to meet with Zelensky regarding the $400 million in military aid and she was also one of several that personally listened in on the phone call between Trump and Zelensky.
Statements: "[the call] involved discussion of what appeared to be a domestic political matter."

Gordon Sondland:
Background: Hotel real estate businessman, Oregon liaison to the White House, appointed a member of the Commission on White House Fellows by former president Bush, worked on Mitt Romney's presidential transition team, donated $1 million to Trump's inaugural committee, appointed by Trump as U.S. ambassador to the European Union.
Relevance: Worked directly with Trump, Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, U.S. Department of Energy Secretary Rick Perry, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and U.S. National Security Advisor John Bolton on Ukrainian matters.
Statements: "[Coordinated] at the express direction of the president of the United States."

“[We] worked with Mr. Rudy Giuliani on Ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the United States.”

"I know that members of this Committee have frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a ‘quid pro quo? As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and White House meeting, the answer is yes.”

"Mr. Giuliani’s requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky. Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing investigations of the 2016 election/DNC server and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the President of the United States, and we knew that these investigations were important to the President."

“Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret.”

“They knew what we were doing and why.” "My lawyers and I have made multiple requests to the State Department and the White House for these materials. Yet, these materials were not provided to me. They have also refused to share these materials with this committee.”

“Simply put, we played the hand we were dealt. We all understood that if we refused to work with Mr. Giuliani, we would lose an important opportunity to cement relations between the United States and Ukraine. So we followed the president’s orders.”

“Ukrainians needed those funds to fight against Russian aggression. I tried diligently to ask why the aid was suspended, but I never received a clear answer.”

“In the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid, I later came to believe that the resumption of security aid would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations of the 2016 election and Burisma, as Mr. Giuliani had demanded.”

What you got, Snoopy?

The first one was their star "witness," who actually witnessed nothing.  The 2nd is their most credible witness, the only one who had any first hand interactions with Trump concerning this matter.  Both of their arguments were torn to pieces.

AbrahamHamdan said:

ok... I've been longing to catch a republican...

sir, do you know exactly what the president did?

you do know he ask foreign country to investigate a political rival? and you know that illegal right?

I need an answer sir.

Well, if you want to believe the Dems argument that is completely based on presumptions and feelings, not evidence, you can believe in anything you want.  However, if you just want to look at the actual evidence given, that never happened.  The truth is, the Dems are scared to death about 2020.  That's why, just one year out from an election where the people could vote him out if they believe this stuff happened, they are pursuing impeachment.  They are afraid of 100s of thousands, maybe millions, of people like me, Never Trumpers who wouldn't vote for him in 2016, but will vote for him this time.  And his growing support among Black Americans.

you didn't answer... Trump asked foreign country to investiage a political rival... he said it himself... do you agree with that? do you agree with forigen countries middling in our affairs?



SpokenTruth said:
thismeintiel said:

Video 1:

Jim Jordan makes for a horrible lawyer. William Taylor was not part of the back channel miscommunication group bestrewn the US and Ukraine. Asking him about being part of it was already known. He's asking questions we all already know the answers to as though it were new. Here's where that works. YOU didn't know. You're news outlet of choice has ignored that this whole time so to you this is a big deal. Taylor's purpose in this hearing was for pre-text for future testimony by Sondland and Homles and corroboration of previous private testimony by Sondland. But Jim Jordan sure as hell isn't going to tell you that.  And Taylor was never a "star" witness as you should now understand given the purpose I just told you about...that Jim Jordan didn't.

The 3 meetings between Taylor and Ukrainians. Again, given that Taylor was not part of the back channel group, why in the hell would Ukraine openly discuss it with Taylor? Jim Jordan asking this question makes me question his understanding of anything going on.

Jordan quotes Taylor, "My clear understanding was security assistance money would nto come until President Zelensky committed to pursue the investigation." Now Jordan claims his understanding is wrong because Zelensky never made such an announcement despite getting the funds on Sept 11.

But when was the whistleblower report filed? August 12.

So let me get this straight. Jim Jordan thinks that we are supposed to believe that Trump is still going to withhold aid and wait for Zelensky to make a public statement about the very thing the whistleblower report complains about? That whole line of questioning and his conclusion was predicated on ignorance and a deficiency in logic.

I'll do video 2 next.

Taylor said his "clear" understanding, which Jordan effectively took down as not being so clear, was directly from Sondland.  He didn't need to be a part of the back channel, as you call it.  He says he got it from someone who had directly talked to Trump.  There was really no reason for him to even be there, as the only one who even mattered in terms of actual first hand evidence, was Sondland.  Though, I'm sure you are going with the same ridiculous argument the Dems made, that hearsay and rumor are better than first hand accounts. Hope someone uses that against you if you ever find yourself accused of something you didn't do.

On to Sondland, who conveniently left out the part in his opening statement that Trump already told him directly that he didn't want anything from Ukraine.  Or the part, which Jordan, again, effectively got him to admit.  He was the one spreading around that Trump wanted the investigation to release aid.  No one else told him that.  He just pulled it out of his ass.  He even admitted that CNN and Schiffty were wrong in their reporting.



Hiku said:

Because "I would like you to do us a favor though"

Favor = "A gracious, friendly, or obliging act that is freely granted."
Quid pro quo = "Something that is given in return for something else or accepted as a reciprocal part of an exchange."

The only way you can make this bullshit work is if you want to rewrite history and redefine what words actually mean. This whole thing is a stretch, but if you want to make your case you're going to have to do better than that.



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Video 2:

Sondland was directed by the Trump to follow Giuliani's orders. Representative Mike Turner is almost lying about Volker's testimony by claiming that Volker said aid was never tied to meetings/investigations. He is using Volker's previous private testimony yet ignoring his public testimony which took place just 1 day earlier.

Here is a quote from Volker the previous day, "I have learned many things that I did not know at the time of the events in question. I [initially] did not know of any linkage between the hold on security assistance and Ukraine pursuing investigations. In retrospect, I should have seen that connection differently."

Now why is Representative Turner ignoring these very words from Volker less than 24 hours prior? Turnver is going to ignore this because he hopes you don't know this.  3:40, Representative Turner points out that Sondland provided emails and text messages (which came from chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Secretary of Energy Rick Perry and others and all spoke about the quid pro quo) but again uses Volker's older private testimony to say those are all wrong yet ignores his recent testimony that says he himself (Volker) was initially wrong.

Sondland himself (along with Volker) wrote the agreement with Zelensky regarding the quid pro quo and Turner completely ignores this.  And remember this, "My lawyers and I have made multiple requests to the State Department and the White House for these materials. Yet, these materials were not provided to me. They have also refused to share these materials with this committee.”  I'll let you guess what documents he's talking about.

How the hell was this guy a lawyer?  And no wonder Jim Jordan dropped out of law school.

Video 3 soon.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

Many of us Americans believe in the rule of law and are tax paying, law abiding citizens. Donald Trump has been a corrupt individual for many many years and plenty of people should be aware of who they voted for. There is no wonder why this man doesn't want to release his financial information even though he claims he's to most transparent president in history...

His money and entire career is tied to corruption, so those that blindly support him but ridicule others when they break the law are extreme hypocrites and must admit that they don't truly care about democracy or the constitution and would probably rather have a dictator than a president. Trump is a pathological liar so there's no wonder his followers are confused about what's true and what's false. The man got on tv just recently and stated that China was going to be paying another huge lump sum of money to American farmers for the tariff war. Now anyone that knows just a little bit about politics knows that American tax payers are footing the bill for this, China hasn't given anything.

Notice I said his followers and not supporters because at this stage in the game when a person refuses to be informed of the truth and thinks that this person who they put on a pedestal can do no wrong. You are no longer just in or defending a specific political party, that is a cult!



Because as counter-productive as their efforts are, the sack of crap in the oval office must be held accountable for his actions. I'm sure you can agree, regardless of political affiliation.



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thismeintiel said:

Taylor said his "clear" understanding, which Jordan effectively took down as not being so clear, was directly from Sondland.  He didn't need to be a part of the back channel, as you call it.  He says he got it from someone who had directly talked to Trump.  There was really no reason for him to even be there, as the only one who even mattered in terms of actual first hand evidence, was Sondland.  1). Though, I'm sure you are going with the same ridiculous argument the Dems made, that hearsay and rumor are better than first hand accounts. Hope someone uses that against you if you ever find yourself accused of something you didn't do.

2). On to Sondland, who conveniently left out the part in his opening statement that Trump already told him directly that he didn't want anything from Ukraine.  Or the part, which Jordan, again, effectively got him to admit.  He was the one spreading around that Trump wanted the investigation to release aid.  No one else told him that.  He just pulled it out of his ass.  He even admitted that CNN and Schiffty were wrong in their reporting.

1). No, and I actually found that statement dumb as fuck. 

2). Ah, I was hoping you'd bring this up.  Are you familiar with the timeline of these events?  I suppose not or you wouldn't mention this at all.

August 12, 2019, whistleblower submits their report.
September 9, 2019, White House is made aware of the whistleblower report.
September 9, 2019, Trump tells Sondland , "I want nothing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo."

Last edited by SpokenTruth - on 22 November 2019

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

Interesting that this impeachment is only hurting Biden's numbers. After all he and his son looted Ukraine and he bragged about getting the "son of a bitch" prosecutor fired with the direct threat of rescinding 1 billion Dollar US taxpayer money.

"well, son of a bitch, he got fired"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA--dj2-CY

Tells you how much some Dems live in a media bubble that they defend this behavior.