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Forums - Gaming Discussion - If 5G has 1ms lag then how does anyone apart from Nintendo survive?

fatslob-:O said:

Sure massive MIMO can be deployed with LTE but it's very rarely that it happens since massive MIMO antennae are very heavy for the given cell site loading and not many mobile network operators like the idea of stressing the cell site only for it to fall down because it couldn't handle some strong winds so deploying massive MIMO in the past usually wasn't worth it since towers needed to be upgraded to handle the extra loading ... 

The latest iterations of massive MIMO antennae are getting lighter which are making them a more suitable option for increasing bandwidth capacity with no extra spectrum added which will make them far more deployable outside of urban areas ... 

Maybe in your part of the world!

fatslob-:O said:

Meh, the interference posed by extreme weather conditions aren't much of a concern for sub-6 GHz frequencies since they'll penetrate obstacles just fine ... 

Weather condition interference and line of sight is a much bigger issue with mmWaves ...

Allot of rural/regional towers here are fed by Microwave backhaul, which is extremely susceptible to poor weather conditions like hail and even rain.
Before VDSL got rolled out with a fiber line to feed the whole network we were relying on microwave backhaul to feed ADSL connections untill just a few years ago, whenever there was any bit of shit weather, the backhaul fell over. - NextGen Networks actually installed a second microwave link as a fallback... And that often fell over as-well, requiring eventually a third link.

2G/3G and 4G all collapsed here on monday during a massive bushfire, the ash and smoke took down all mobile communications.

fatslob-:O said:

Eh, I wouldn't call it a device by itself. It's an "integrated circuit" so let's just leave it at that ... 

By itself a modem isn't a functional apparatus without the RF antenna modules which are needed to interact with the radio waves itself ... 

You knew exactly what I was talking about, you are just playing semantics. Haha

fatslob-:O said:

"But due to the smaller cell size which reduces the amount of users per cell meaning less bandwidth competition between users"

I thought it was implied from the above statement but anyways bandwidth capacity for a cell site is a complex topic ...

It's all about the air interface/waveform (TDMA vs CDMA vs W-CDMA vs OFDMA), channel coding technology (turbo code vs convolutional code vs LDPC code vs polar code), MIMO (spatial multiplexing), duplexing techniques (FDD vs TDD/TDD configuration), duplexing modes (full duplex vs half duplex), SINR (signal interference noise ratio), carrier aggregation, un/paired spectrum, etc ... 

It is certainly a complex topic, the ramble you posted doesn't contradict my statement.
Cell sizes of 5G are smaller than 3G or 4G.

Everything you listed is important, but... It doesn't change that underlying principle.



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Pemalite said:

Maybe in your part of the world!

It's pretty rare. The leading provider of massive MIMO antennae have only delivered 400000 units to the world so far this year ... 

With their 3rd generation massive MIMO antennae, they'll be able to take the mass down to just 25kg ... (the competitors are at least 40kg and heavier) 

Pemalite said:

Allot of rural/regional towers here are fed by Microwave backhaul, which is extremely susceptible to poor weather conditions like hail and even rain.

Before VDSL got rolled out with a fiber line to feed the whole network we were relying on microwave backhaul to feed ADSL connections untill just a few years ago, whenever there was any bit of shit weather, the backhaul fell over. - NextGen Networks actually installed a second microwave link as a fallback... And that often fell over as-well, requiring eventually a third link.

2G/3G and 4G all collapsed here on monday during a massive bushfire, the ash and smoke took down all mobile communications.

That's probably down to poor quality equipment or the damage in the process or it could be that it's using a mmWave backhaul ... 

Using microwave backhaul is perfectly scalable, just don't go using frequencies above 10 GHz ... 

mmWave in itself is a curse no matter where it's used ... 

Pemalite said:

You knew exactly what I was talking about, you are just playing semantics. Haha

I really don't ... 

It's somewhat serious stuff. Samsung is extremely deceptive when it comes to their 'support' for mmWave technology. They keep advertising that their Exynos 5100 modems are capable mmWave but that is totally meaningless in terms of being able to use frequency bands such as n257/n258/n260/n261 when they don't have the RF mmWave antenna modules like Qualcomm does with their QTM052 or QTM525 mmWave antenna modules ... 

The RF antenna modules are the difference between why Qualcomm's in-house chipsets/integrated circuits are actually 5G mmWave capable while Samsung's designed chipsets/integrated circuits aren't 5G mmWave capable!

The magic behind it all happens beyond just the baseband technology ...

Pemalite said:

It is certainly a complex topic, the ramble you posted doesn't contradict my statement.
Cell sizes of 5G are smaller than 3G or 4G.

Everything you listed is important, but... It doesn't change that underlying principle.

Were you implying that smaller cell sizes lead to lower coverage ? 

If so then that is not necessarily true in the case of using beamforming techniques or if different transmit power is applied to each antenna ... 



I though in a future where the input lag wasnt achieved, but hardware advances come to a stage with such computational power/low power consumption, making able to very small devices be powerful enough for high-end-visual games.
So, the chips can be incorporated to TVs, of even included on the game controller and transmitted wirelesly to a TV.
Hardware developers would sell only game controllers, or portable/hybrid devices.

But in the case the cloud remote play become the standard, everyone might go to stadia route. Only hardware to sell is the controller, the rest would be the software, subscription, services,



So, are we gonna have near zero lag on games or what?



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padib said:
goopy20 said:
You're forgetting that not everyone cares about gaming on the go. I much rather play games at home on my 65 inch Oled. Also, I don't think Nintendo is competing with Sony or MS in the console space. They are just targeted towards totally difference audiences. Nintendo is mainly a family friendly/ kids console while Sony and MS are aiming more for the "core" gamers. I mean my nephew loved everything Nintendo when he was 7. Now he's 11 and he's only playing ps4 and pc.

Goopy, if your nephew is 11 then he is still honestly very much a kid, playing PS4 because he wants to be "cool" (is it still like that nowadays) does not make him less of a child.

I have 12 nephews and nieces and they wouldn't be older in my eyes at 11 years old because they want to play playstation.

What defines an adult console? Because it has games like Mortal Kombat where you rip other peoples' heads off? You know very well that that doesn't make an adult of anyone. Adults like intrinsically great things, with high quality, value, challenge and meaning. Therefore, games like Breath of the Wild or Astral Chain easily fit such a category. But even if playing Mortal Kombat made more of an adult out of you, the Switch has it.

To be honest I was sure this kind of opinion died 5 years ago.

No, being an adult has nothing to do with what kind of games you play. However, there is a clear distinction in who plays what type of games and generally speaking gamers outgrow Nintendo games. Personally, I play almost any sort of game and I'm a grown ass man. I also understand that MArio and Zelda are top quality games but they are just not my cup of tea and why I wouldn't buy a Nintendo console. It's a simple fact that there isn't much of a market on ps4/360 for games like Crash Bandicoot, Ratchet & Clank etc. While on the Switch it's the other way around and there isn't much of a market for games like Mortal Kombat, GTA, Call of Duty etc. 



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Pyro as Bill said:

Graphics won't matter so Nintendo instantly becomes a high end console.

*Graphics will always matter when gameing.

Dedicated gaming devices might still be used even if it's just for controllers and convenience.

*Or because they deliver better image quality + input delay + consistancy + fix data cap issue.
(your sitting on bush / train, and you go through a tunnel, or under a bridge or something, and you lose connection? consistancy isnt a thing for streaming, its better to run a game locally on a portable system, like a switch instead)

Nintendo seems fine for now because they've successfully predicted the future again.

*You think streaming is the future, so the Switch is future proof, because.... streaming?

DS embraced touchscreen and microphone games that were about to become huge thanks to Apple/Android. (DSi added a camera)

Wii was a TV-box with a TV remote as a controller, the market didn't go that way but most new TVs are smart TVs and therefore could easily become consoles. Every TV manufacturer could install their own Wii Sports if they have motion control in the remote.

3DS used multiple cameras and motion control because that's what smartphones were about to come with as standard.

WiiU thought multiple devices would be connected and would allow for streaming, extra screen(s) and asymmetric gameplay. They do but no-one takes advantage of it.

Switch is a 'tablet' (does the Gameboy count as a tablet?) built around a selection of blutooth controllers and TV docking which is one of the future battlegrounds if 5G is as fast and stable enough as promised and/or when the graphics difference shrinks.

* Have you seen Google Stadia performance? compression artifacts, inconsistancies in resolution, stutters, input delays, worse imagine quality than current PS4pro or Xbox One X.... list goes on and on, theres very few upsides.

Nintendo has and is successfully defending itself against smart devices. Smartphones, tablets, smart TVs, TV boxes. If 5G makes every device a PS6 level graphics beast then the war will be about exclusive software, controllers, friends lists/online, maybe the ability to easily switch between TV and portable, price, simplicity/accessibility, gimmicky addons, local multiplayer.

*5G wont magically make any device a future console, via game streaming. So far Game Streaming has issues and huge downsides that wont be fixed with just more bandwidth, so 5G wont do anything to fix it.

Sony and MS lose all (except online) their strengths while Nintendo's are magnified.

If we all wake up tomorrow and every $30 Android device can seamlessly stream PS6 level graphics with zero lag and zero cost to porting, who wins the console war?

Theres no game streaming service, that can give less input lag than a local run game from a dedicated device.
Its just not geographically possible, due to the laws of physics. This isnt a bandwidth issue, so there will never be "zero lag", theres always going to be extra input lag delay compaired to a physical console.

Stadia tried their best to keep input delays as small as possible, and still theres videos of people where they press a button in a game, and it takes 0,5secounds to 1+ secound before the character reacts on screen. Thats not a bandwith issue, its a data has to travel back and forth issue, and things take time to move distances issue.

5G wont magically change anything.

*edit:

Also apparently 1080p on stadia with compression is only slightly better than 720p run locally in terms of image quality.
That can take upwards of 8 GB pr hour.

What kinda phone data plan do you own? alot of people have those 100GB / 200 GB pr month type deals.
With that you could only game like 12-25 hours on your phone pr month.


Also "every $30 Android device can seamlessly stream PS6 level graphics"
You realise alot of Chrome books, cant even use stadia with "decent performance"..... how do you expect a 30$ phone to do so?
Thats a massive over exageration.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 22 November 2019

Nice joke thread, but nope 5G won't threaten console gaming. And the way Nintendo fought against Smartphones was putting console attributes on their portable.



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zero129 said:
What this thread has showing me.. USA internet sucks....

Canada is worse.  Much worse.



this one picture says it all:

Click on it to see it full screen, native size, and compair.... theres a big differnce.