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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Scarlett Will Prioritize Frame Rate Over Graphics

Tagged games:

 

Do you prefer 60/4k with reduced visuals or 30/4k with increased visuals?

YES! 30 40.00%
 
No. 5 6.67%
 
Depends on the game. 32 42.67%
 
I dont care. 8 10.67%
 
Total:75
ManUtdFan said:
CGI-Quality said:

Because 30fps is totally playable and is the standard. Far less people get headaches or nausea than those that don’t. 

You want constant 60fps? Go PC.

I agree, locked 30fps is totally playable for just about every genre including multiplayer FPS's. But not racers. I've had motion sickness from playing GTA IV and Rocket League. I don't get said issue playing other games.

Low frame rate for driving games is nigh on unforgivable. It's a choice. Tone down the detail and 60 fps is easily achievable, even on older platforms. 

I’m aware of all of that. I’m just telling you what the bottom line is. Rarely will you find detail being sacrificed for frames per second.



                                                                                                                                                           

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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

You know what, youre absolutely right. I get your point now.

All games should be 480p. If people dont like it, tough shit. Just back away from the TV. Its so obvious.

When people were complaing about X1's resolution disparity, the solution was obviously move your couch further back.

We didnt even need the X1X. They should just develop a Xbox branded tape measurer. That way people with large screen could figure out the correct distance for their screen and couch.

I don't know why you are ignoring the evidence to keep clinging to your own false narratives?

Mr Puggsly said:

Hmm... me thinks you're overestimating the capabilities of the "Spec A+ box." "LOL!"

X1X doesn't have enough CPU power to make all X1 content 60 fps. It just happens to have a significant CPU boost that makes 60 fps MORE feasible.

Its kinda like building a PC. 9th gen consoles need to have CPUs sufficient for 60 fps in demanding current and upcoming games. My guess is they will have about 10TF, so that should be enough for 60 fps in many games at about 1440p and higher.

There is more to achieving 60fps than just CPU performance.
If you are GPU limited... You aren't hitting 60fps.

And let's face it, the Xbox One is not only CPU limited, but GPU limited as well, it was never going to have a ton of 60fps games, especially as it can't even maintain 1080P.

Mr Puggsly said:

Well in the 8th gen resolution and effects saw great improvements. Not really feeling like physics or AI saw a massive boost, not to the same extent.

They did see massive increases, especially in the particles department on later titles.

A.I saw increases, especially in character counts, complexity of A.I routines I would argue haven't really taken a massive stride in years... I mean Halo: Combat Evolved on the OG Xbox verses Halo 5 on the Xbox One, it's a night and day difference in CPU performance, but not in A.I complexity.

DonFerrari said:

Reason why I'm plenty satisfied with my 4k tv at 3 to 5' distance and will only think about upgrading for real when 8k 85" are reasonably priced both on panel and hw to have that quality.

You do reach a point where things like better HDR is more important than resolution... MicroLED is likely going to be the next big panel tech which should allow for a big step up in that aspect.

I like the HDR and contrast in my TV, and I do think that the solution when 8k is mature enough to have an affordable price on a 85" panel the HDR and other aspects will have improved as well (probably will take another 5 years for that).

My opinion on X1 and PS4 is that they didn't had a specific bottleneck, yes both CPU and GPU aren't enough for most games to be 60fps and have high resolution. For me it was a well balanced budget conscious choice. Yes X1 got it a little worse using the silicon space for the edram or something like that to compensate for the slower RAM so the GPU is considerably weaker than PS4. But both have a very consistent performance for most games that weren't badly made on a 720 or 900p30fps for X1 and 900p or 1080p30fps on PS4, with either pushing more fps, resolution or effects hitting the system as a whole.

ManUtdFan said:
CGI-Quality said:

Because 30fps is totally playable and is the standard. Far less people get headaches or nausea than those that don’t. 

You want constant 60fps? Go PC.

I agree, locked 30fps is totally playable for just about every genre including multiplayer FPS's. But not racers. I've had motion sickness from playing GTA IV and Rocket League. I don't get said issue playing other games.

Low frame rate for driving games is nigh on unforgivable. It's a choice. Tone down the detail and 60 fps is easily achievable, even on older platforms. 

Most racers are 60fps, and even the ones that are 30fps are fine to play, racers usually can do well on the detail while offering double the fps compared to open world or action/adventure.

People have watched TV at 24fps for life without nausea.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Mr Puggsly said:

Resolution not important, just move back. I am ending on that. Its not a false narrative, you provided a graphic showing it.

I never once said you just "need to move back". That is your narrative, not mine.
The facts have been presented with all the necessary evidence to support it, if you wish to disregard it, that's on you, at-least other forum members might find the information valuable.

Mr Puggsly said:

I was discussing X1X in regard to 60 fps. Your response is a completely different discussion, but I agree with the irrelevant argument youre making.

I was discussing framerates.

Mr Puggsly said:

You make a good point I wasnt neccessarily considering. There are certainly games that used the improved CPUs for increased scale. I dont feel the AI in those games got much better though. I mean the AI in some 7th gen games still trounce many 8th gen games. Hence, I argue great AI seems to difficult to design more than a specs limitation.

Some A.I from 6th gen are competitive with 8th gen titles. Then again, the OG Xbox CPU was pretty potent, so Bungie did some great work with it.

It will be interesting to see how Ryzen affects things on this front, if we get increased complexity or more scale.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Resolution not important, just move back. I am ending on that. Its not a false narrative, you provided a graphic showing it.

I never once said you just "need to move back". That is your narrative, not mine.
The facts have been presented with all the necessary evidence to support it, if you wish to disregard it, that's on you, at-least other forum members might find the information valuable.

Mr Puggsly said:

I was discussing X1X in regard to 60 fps. Your response is a completely different discussion, but I agree with the irrelevant argument youre making.

I was discussing framerates.

Mr Puggsly said:

You make a good point I wasnt neccessarily considering. There are certainly games that used the improved CPUs for increased scale. I dont feel the AI in those games got much better though. I mean the AI in some 7th gen games still trounce many 8th gen games. Hence, I argue great AI seems to difficult to design more than a specs limitation.

Some A.I from 6th gen are competitive with 8th gen titles. Then again, the OG Xbox CPU was pretty potent, so Bungie did some great work with it.

It will be interesting to see how Ryzen affects things on this front, if we get increased complexity or more scale.

You post a picture talking about sitting distance to the screen and I need to ignore that? I really think we're having a different arguments but I'm wrong apparently.

You were discussing the limited GPU of the base X1 and how that affects framerates. I was not, I was discussing X1X given it has a vastly superior GPU therefore it does not have the same bottleneck issue. We don't need to elaborate on this.

I agree, even 6th gen games have examples of impressive AI. Some of those PC ports to Xbox also come to mind. Again, I suspect good AI can be difficult to create even when you have plenty of resources. So I try to remind people games from previous gens were doing impressive AIs with much less power.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Mr Puggsly said:

You post a picture talking about sitting distance to the screen and I need to ignore that? I really think we're having a different arguments but I'm wrong apparently.

I am NOT telling you to ignore it. Again, those are your words, not mine. - Otherwise I wouldn't have posted it in the first place.

You are twisting and misconstruing my statements to be something they aren't, please stop it.

Mr Puggsly said:

You were discussing the limited GPU of the base X1 and how that affects framerates. I was not, I was discussing X1X given it has a vastly superior GPU therefore it does not have the same bottleneck issue. We don't need to elaborate on this.

The point you are missing that I am trying to convey is that all components play a role in framerates.

And the Xbox One X certainly does have a GPU bottleneck issue, otherwise every game would be operating at 4k with ultra settings instead of medium quality at a variable resolution.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

You post a picture talking about sitting distance to the screen and I need to ignore that? I really think we're having a different arguments but I'm wrong apparently.

I am NOT telling you to ignore it. Again, those are your words, not mine. - Otherwise I wouldn't have posted it in the first place.

You are twisting and misconstruing my statements to be something they aren't, please stop it.

Mr Puggsly said:

You were discussing the limited GPU of the base X1 and how that affects framerates. I was not, I was discussing X1X given it has a vastly superior GPU therefore it does not have the same bottleneck issue. We don't need to elaborate on this.

The point you are missing that I am trying to convey is that all components play a role in framerates.

And the Xbox One X certainly does have a GPU bottleneck issue, otherwise every game would be operating at 4k with ultra settings instead of medium quality at a variable resolution.

We will agree to disagree on the resolution/display thing.

You don't understand what I was saying about GPU bottleneck. You made the point base X1 struggles to achieve 1080p, not relevant but agreed. The X1X on the otherhand can handle similar visuals at much higher resolutions. Hence, X1X has less GPU bottneck issues.

The logic is X1X can hit the highly coveted 1080p resolution often with plenty of GPU power to spare. Thats why there are numerous titles that offer a 60 fps mode at 1080p.

Hence, X1X's massive GPU boost along with a less impressive CPU boost means more games can achieve 60 fps and maybe at 1080p or higher. But the CPU power still isnt there to push all X1 games to 60 fps.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Mr Puggsly said:

We will agree to disagree on the resolution/display thing.

You can disagree as much as you want. It's besides the point... At the end of the day I have provided the necessary evidence to backup my claims, you have not, thus I am the only one with a legitimate argument.

I am not here to change your mind, I am here to debate the arguments you put forth... Not for you, nor me, but for other Forum users who may be reading this unfolding discussion.

Mr Puggsly said:

You don't understand what I was saying about GPU bottleneck. You made the point base X1 struggles to achieve 1080p, not relevant but agreed. The X1X on the otherhand can handle similar visuals at much higher resolutions. Hence, X1X has less GPU bottneck issues.

The logic is X1X can hit the highly coveted 1080p resolution often with plenty of GPU power to spare. Thats why there are numerous titles that offer a 60 fps mode at 1080p.

Hence, X1X's massive GPU boost along with a less impressive CPU boost means more games can achieve 60 fps and maybe at 1080p or higher. But the CPU power still isnt there to push all X1 games to 60 fps.

No. You don't understand.
The Xbox One X still has a GPU bottleneck.

The only time it doesn't have a GPU bottleneck is when it's at a locked resolution (I.E. No dynamic resolution shenanigans) and locks at 60fps with an additional GPU rendertime overhead... And that is a very rare thing that generally never happens.

And the same applies to the Original Xbox One.





--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

We will agree to disagree on the resolution/display thing.

You can disagree as much as you want. It's besides the point... At the end of the day I have provided the necessary evidence to backup my claims, you have not, thus I am the only one with a legitimate argument.

I am not here to change your mind, I am here to debate the arguments you put forth... Not for you, nor me, but for other Forum users who may be reading this unfolding discussion.

Mr Puggsly said:

You don't understand what I was saying about GPU bottleneck. You made the point base X1 struggles to achieve 1080p, not relevant but agreed. The X1X on the otherhand can handle similar visuals at much higher resolutions. Hence, X1X has less GPU bottneck issues.

The logic is X1X can hit the highly coveted 1080p resolution often with plenty of GPU power to spare. Thats why there are numerous titles that offer a 60 fps mode at 1080p.

Hence, X1X's massive GPU boost along with a less impressive CPU boost means more games can achieve 60 fps and maybe at 1080p or higher. But the CPU power still isnt there to push all X1 games to 60 fps.

No. You don't understand.
The Xbox One X still has a GPU bottleneck.

The only time it doesn't have a GPU bottleneck is when it's at a locked resolution (I.E. No dynamic resolution shenanigans) and locks at 60fps with an additional GPU rendertime overhead... And that is a very rare thing that generally never happens.

And the same applies to the Original Xbox One.

Or we could put that every single HW is both CPU and GPU bottlenecked because there will always be stuff you could do with more of both that you can't with what you have.

In some cases (depending on game design and choices) you have to limit framerate, in others the resolution, in others the effects or textures. Basically in some situations CPU is more of a bottleneck and in others the GPU is.

Considering X1X compared to X1 had a 4x bump on GPU but a very small one in CPU we could say that it is more CPU limited than GPU so it will run games at similar fps but with better graphics, and in situations X1 is almost capable of doing 60fps in a game but for smoothness they capped at 30 locked the X1X will do 60fps with that small gain in CPU and still be able to put twice as much resolution (4x more GPU, half advantage used due to double FPS and the other half to double the pixelcount).

Still anyone will say that if they made the decision to make that game that is 30 fps on X1 still be 30fps on X1X so they have similar gameplay experience (let's say it have multiplayer elements) then it can just put 4x more resolution or effects - that is when you go from 1080p on X1 to true 4k on X1X.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

We will agree to disagree on the resolution/display thing.

You can disagree as much as you want. It's besides the point... At the end of the day I have provided the necessary evidence to backup my claims, you have not, thus I am the only one with a legitimate argument.

I am not here to change your mind, I am here to debate the arguments you put forth... Not for you, nor me, but for other Forum users who may be reading this unfolding discussion.

Mr Puggsly said:

You don't understand what I was saying about GPU bottleneck. You made the point base X1 struggles to achieve 1080p, not relevant but agreed. The X1X on the otherhand can handle similar visuals at much higher resolutions. Hence, X1X has less GPU bottneck issues.

The logic is X1X can hit the highly coveted 1080p resolution often with plenty of GPU power to spare. Thats why there are numerous titles that offer a 60 fps mode at 1080p.

Hence, X1X's massive GPU boost along with a less impressive CPU boost means more games can achieve 60 fps and maybe at 1080p or higher. But the CPU power still isnt there to push all X1 games to 60 fps.

No. You don't understand.
The Xbox One X still has a GPU bottleneck.

The only time it doesn't have a GPU bottleneck is when it's at a locked resolution (I.E. No dynamic resolution shenanigans) and locks at 60fps with an additional GPU rendertime overhead... And that is a very rare thing that generally never happens.

And the same applies to the Original Xbox One.



I really think we are having two different discussions because it shouldnt be a debate. So we both win our own arguments.

No, you dont understand. X1X has unlimited GPU power. Thats obviously what I am trying to say. It doesent suffer from any bottleneck issues.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

DonFerrari said:
Pemalite said:

You can disagree as much as you want. It's besides the point... At the end of the day I have provided the necessary evidence to backup my claims, you have not, thus I am the only one with a legitimate argument.

I am not here to change your mind, I am here to debate the arguments you put forth... Not for you, nor me, but for other Forum users who may be reading this unfolding discussion.

No. You don't understand.
The Xbox One X still has a GPU bottleneck.

The only time it doesn't have a GPU bottleneck is when it's at a locked resolution (I.E. No dynamic resolution shenanigans) and locks at 60fps with an additional GPU rendertime overhead... And that is a very rare thing that generally never happens.

And the same applies to the Original Xbox One.

Or we could put that every single HW is both CPU and GPU bottlenecked because there will always be stuff you could do with more of both that you can't with what you have.

In some cases (depending on game design and choices) you have to limit framerate, in others the resolution, in others the effects or textures. Basically in some situations CPU is more of a bottleneck and in others the GPU is.

Considering X1X compared to X1 had a 4x bump on GPU but a very small one in CPU we could say that it is more CPU limited than GPU so it will run games at similar fps but with better graphics, and in situations X1 is almost capable of doing 60fps in a game but for smoothness they capped at 30 locked the X1X will do 60fps with that small gain in CPU and still be able to put twice as much resolution (4x more GPU, half advantage used due to double FPS and the other half to double the pixelcount).

Still anyone will say that if they made the decision to make that game that is 30 fps on X1 still be 30fps on X1X so they have similar gameplay experience (let's say it have multiplayer elements) then it can just put 4x more resolution or effects - that is when you go from 1080p on X1 to true 4k on X1X.

Yes, I am glad somebody understands what I was saying.

Although the X1X did get a pretty good CPU increase which helps it achieve 60 fps with more ease.



Recently Completed
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)