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Forums - Politics Discussion - Muslim parents in UK protest school children's storybook featuring same gender parents

Azuren said:

Do you keep missing the point where I say I'm on the lgbt side of this?

It's an irrelevant point that you merely hold up to have a go at the political left and deflect. Your line of argumentation would even paint people as naziphobes for speaking out against nazis. Do you know what phobia means? Irrational fear.

Hence why criticism of islamic ideology such as in this thread has nothing to do with islamophobia. Conversely, the protests of the muslim people that this thread is about are driven by homophobia.



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RolStoppable said:
Azuren said:

Do you keep missing the point where I say I'm on the lgbt side of this?

It's an irrelevant point that you merely hold up to have a go at the political left and deflect. Your line of argumentation would even paint people as naziphobes for speaking out against nazis. Do you know what phobia means? Irrational fear.

Hence why criticism of islamic ideology such as in this thread has nothing to do with islamophobia. Conversely, the protests of the muslim people that this thread is about are driven by homophobia.

Islamophobia

NOUN

mass noun

No, Islamophobia isn't an irrational fear. Your entire argument is incorrect from the get-go by trying to do a surface-level analysis of the suffix "-phobia" rather than taking it for what everyone understands it to be when attached to an identity.



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Azuren said:

Trying to dumb down a nuanced discussion about religious beliefs, sexual orientation, and overriding parents' wishes to five lines only shows how woefully unprepared you are to actually discuss this outside of a basic attempt to virtue signal.

His example there isn't supposed to be the entire discussion.  It's only there because he's showing an example that adults and kids don't view certain issues under the same light. Because some people in this thread have argued that kids are going to be confused.  Despite the fact that adults complicate these types of matters, whereas kids don't tend to give them a second thought.  

Azuren said:

And even in that line, you're essentially telling Muslims that their belief is wrong and they should assimilate. While I agree you on that, it's also important to point out what you're doing. Then there's the fact that we're not talking about a parent telling their child and having a discussion, we're talking about a public institution discussing it with these children against the wishes of their parents.

Well, there's things that can be believed and there are things that are fact.  

It's one thing to believe that being LGBT is immoral, it's another thing entirely to pretend that LGBT only exists because people made the choice to do that.  Both of those things are bad, but one of them is literally nonfactual.  

I think people should be allowed to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm other people.  Anti-LGBT beliefs can and do hurt people.  



the-pi-guy said:
Azuren said:

Trying to dumb down a nuanced discussion about religious beliefs, sexual orientation, and overriding parents' wishes to five lines only shows how woefully unprepared you are to actually discuss this outside of a basic attempt to virtue signal.

His example there isn't supposed to be the entire discussion.  It's only there because he's showing an example that adults and kids don't view certain issues under the same light. Because some people in this thread have argued that kids are going to be confused.  Despite the fact that adults complicate these types of matters, whereas kids don't tend to give them a second thought.  

Azuren said:

And even in that line, you're essentially telling Muslims that their belief is wrong and they should assimilate. While I agree you on that, it's also important to point out what you're doing. Then there's the fact that we're not talking about a parent telling their child and having a discussion, we're talking about a public institution discussing it with these children against the wishes of their parents.

Well, there's things that can be believed and there are things that are fact.  

It's one thing to believe that being LGBT is immoral, it's another thing entirely to pretend that LGBT only exists because people made the choice to do that.  Both of those things are bad, but one of them is literally nonfactual.  

I think people should be allowed to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm other people.  Anti-LGBT beliefs can and do hurt people.  

It's still dismissing a large portion of the nuance in why this issue has arisen, that being the belief structure of Islam.

Involving "fact vs belief" with a discussion on religion is going to end badly, because to many religious people their belief is fact. All you'll end up doing in the end is challenging their religious beliefs.



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Wedge said:
Atheists defending morals (humanity, rights, freedom, justice, etc...) is one of the most absurd things ever, are you guys aware of the consequence of your beliefs? do you know what is it like to be a real atheist?

Consequences of our beliefs? No religion has yet been able to substantiate their religious assertions with empirical evidence, they have been given thousands of years to do so...
But there is evidence of things like the Big Bang, Evolution, Homosexuals and so on. - They have been substantiated.

Wedge said:
From an atheistic view, we are just a bunch of atoms without purpose and meaning (nihilism), good and evil are illusions, and the belief that a certain act is good or evil is an arbitrary conclusion, "It's pretty hard to defend absolute morals on grounds other than religious ones", Richard Dawkins says.

Absolutely false. Good and Evil does exist, but they can differ from ones own perspective.

Morals are a human construct... Morals are built from things like empathy and pain. - In short, we share empathy with someone who is in pain... And would not like to experience a similar pain or inflict that pain upon others.

And we can always talk about the Terrorists who leverage religion for their heinous crimes and the amount of Christian leaders who have been unjust towards children... Where the hell are their morals?
In short... Religion is not required to have morals, I save peoples lives daily, I am a hard-line atheist, unless you are suggesting I don't have morals?

Wedge said:
An atheist who's honest with himself wouldn't care about others lives, as long as he's not concerned. he won't let "moral values" prevent him from pursuing pleasure in his finite life (hedonism), why would he not kill if it won't have negative consequences on him (aka punishment, which wouldn't exist in a purely atheistic world, only the law of nature do).

Pleasure doesn't override morals.
And an Atheist would and can care about himself and others, again... Empathy.

Wedge said:

You can blame your consciousness for that, or keep lying to yourself. As for the homosexuality topic, I recommend reading "My genes made me do it!".

Homosexuality has already been scientifically established that there is a biological, environmental and social aspect to it.

In saying that... Homosexuality most certainly does come into conflict with the main 3 middle eastern religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism... But again, after thousands of years, millions of followers... None of those religions have been able to establish their various assertions with empirical evidence... And thus Homosexuality should take priority in matters.

Machiavellian said:

Why would you want a child to see your relationship as different, unique or outside of the norm then any other relationship.  What purpose would that have if you are looking for parity.  If you want to be treated as equals or the same then your relationship is nothing special or different its another relationship.

I'm not. Hence why LGBTQI issues should be included in the curriculum with regular education.

Machiavellian said:

Well we will disagree with that.  True love is understanding that it's not all about your emotions and at a child young age everything is about their emotions.  If love was binary then I would agree with what you say but love and explaining the different types between 2 different people isn't some simplistic message.

Children are more intelligent than you give them credit for, they have an amazing range of emotions and imagination that often Adults seem to miss.

Machiavellian said:

Not sure what you are sorry for.  I am perfectly happy with my upbringing and my parents but just like any person, you are your own person.

Homesexuality has been here since time started, not sure if you have to tell me that it's here to stay.  I will say that no child needs to be taught about LGBT culture unless they want to learn about it.  It's not something that needs to be forced then any other culture and its definitely no different or special then any other culture.  I will definitely say I have a different stance but that's because I do not see the LGBT community any different than any other community.

If my children want to learn about LGBT community and culture more power to then but it will be their decision not someone else making it for them. 

I am sorry that your perspective is generally wrong.

Every child should be taught about LGBT culture, it's got strong historical, social, political underpinnings in all modern western societies, it's a part of society.. And children should be taught about all major aspects of society. - Unless you are suggesting that children should be excluded from some aspects in order not to offend a few demographics who hate the LGBT community?



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Let me ask ppl here: Do you guys believe that homophobia itself (the thoughts and feelings, when not attached to any act) should be illegal?



Some scientific (empirical) facts to teach:

25% of gay men in America have had over 1000 sex partners. 43% of gay men have over 500 sex partners. 79% of homosexual men say over half of their sex partners are strangers.
http://www.amazon.com/Homosexualities-Study-Diversity-Among-Women/dp/0671251503
http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Opportunity-Disparities-Affecting-Bisexual/dp/0195301536

Gay men are 60x more likely to have HIV than straight men. Another study: Gay men were about 200 times more likely than everyone else to be diagnosed with HIV.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462414/
http://takimag.com/article/the_straight_dope_on_homosexuality_elizabeth_mccaw/print

One in eight gay men in London have HIV.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/11/18/13-of-gay-and-bisexual-men-in-london-living-with-hiv/

46% of male homosexuals report being molested as kids, as compared to only 7% of heterosexual men.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300



numberwang said:

Some scientific (empirical) facts to teach:

25% of gay men in America have had over 1000 sex partners. 43% of gay men have over 500 sex partners. 79% of homosexual men say over half of their sex partners are strangers.
http://www.amazon.com/Homosexualities-Study-Diversity-Among-Women/dp/0671251503
http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Opportunity-Disparities-Affecting-Bisexual/dp/0195301536

Gay men are 60x more likely to have HIV than straight men. Another study: Gay men were about 200 times more likely than everyone else to be diagnosed with HIV.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462414/
http://takimag.com/article/the_straight_dope_on_homosexuality_elizabeth_mccaw/print

One in eight gay men in London have HIV.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/11/18/13-of-gay-and-bisexual-men-in-london-living-with-hiv/

46% of male homosexuals report being molested as kids, as compared to only 7% of heterosexual men.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300

So we shouldn't show a happy family with gay parents but we should tell five-year-olds about HIV, promiscuity of gay men, and childhood molestation of gay men?



...

DrDoomz said:
Let me ask ppl here: Do you guys believe that homophobia itself (the thoughts and feelings, when not attached to any act) should be illegal?

No.  That doesn't make any sense.  

You can't legislate thoughts and feelings.  

numberwang said:

Some scientific (empirical) facts to teach:

25% of gay men in America have had over 1000 sex partners. 43% of gay men have over 500 sex partners. 79% of homosexual men say over half of their sex partners are strangers.
http://www.amazon.com/Homosexualities-Study-Diversity-Among-Women/dp/0671251503
http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Opportunity-Disparities-Affecting-Bisexual/dp/0195301536

Gay men are 60x more likely to have HIV than straight men. Another study: Gay men were about 200 times more likely than everyone else to be diagnosed with HIV.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462414/
http://takimag.com/article/the_straight_dope_on_homosexuality_elizabeth_mccaw/print

One in eight gay men in London have HIV.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/11/18/13-of-gay-and-bisexual-men-in-london-living-with-hiv/

46% of male homosexuals report being molested as kids, as compared to only 7% of heterosexual men.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300

Even if everything in this list is 100% true, what does it matter?  



numberwang said:

Some scientific (empirical) facts to teach:

25% of gay men in America have had over 1000 sex partners. 43% of gay men have over 500 sex partners. 79% of homosexual men say over half of their sex partners are strangers.
http://www.amazon.com/Homosexualities-Study-Diversity-Among-Women/dp/0671251503
http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Opportunity-Disparities-Affecting-Bisexual/dp/0195301536

Gay men are 60x more likely to have HIV than straight men. Another study: Gay men were about 200 times more likely than everyone else to be diagnosed with HIV.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462414/
http://takimag.com/article/the_straight_dope_on_homosexuality_elizabeth_mccaw/print

One in eight gay men in London have HIV.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/11/18/13-of-gay-and-bisexual-men-in-london-living-with-hiv/

46% of male homosexuals report being molested as kids, as compared to only 7% of heterosexual men.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300

Your point is?

I am the first to admit I am happy to sleep around... I always wear protection however, I guess I am attractive, work hard and play hard. - Probably had about 30~ men in the last few weeks alone.

I know a few women who do the same thing and a few straight men as well.

But that doesn't mean that my actions should reflect the rest of the LGBTQI community, nor should they all be painted with the same brush, homosexuality is only an aspect of an individual, not what defines an individual.



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