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Forums - Politics Discussion - Muslim parents in UK protest school children's storybook featuring same gender parents

DrDoomz said:
the-pi-guy said:

Not all Muslims are against LGBT.  

Besides in the scheme of:

-being  against someone for existing (hating people for being LGBT.)

-being against someone for their beliefs (hating people for hating someone who exists.) 

The former wins out pretty much every time.  

You have a situation where one group exists and wants to be  accepted, and another group doesn't want that first group to exist, it's not -phobic anything to call the second group out.  

Were the protesting parents saying that they didn't want LGBT folks to not exist?

They are protesting a book that includes them among other family units. Not a book that says "being gay is great, fuckin' love it" but a book that says "here are a bunch of families, also here's one with two dads". I mean, they certainly don't seem to want them to exist around their children. 



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DrDoomz said:

Were the protesting parents saying that they didn't want LGBT folks to not exist?

Yes.



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Torillian said:
DrDoomz said:

Were the protesting parents saying that they didn't want LGBT folks to not exist?

They are protesting a book that includes them among other family units. Not a book that says "being gay is great, fuckin' love it" but a book that says "here are a bunch of families, also here's one with two dads". I mean, they certainly don't seem to want them to exist around their children. 

They are protesting that they be given the choice of their children to opt out of a lesson they do no agree with (due to their beliefs). Now you and I might not agree with their beliefs but they have every right to do so.

But (unless I missed a part of the video that did so) disproportionally portraying them to make them look worse feels very Islamaphobic to me.



RolStoppable said:
DrDoomz said:

Were the protesting parents saying that they didn't want LGBT folks to not exist?

Yes.

Would love a timestamp if I missed that part of the video then so I can go ahead and disagree with what the parents are doing.



DrDoomz said:
Torillian said:

They are protesting a book that includes them among other family units. Not a book that says "being gay is great, fuckin' love it" but a book that says "here are a bunch of families, also here's one with two dads". I mean, they certainly don't seem to want them to exist around their children. 

They are protesting that they be given the choice of their children to opt out of a lesson they do no agree with (due to their beliefs). Now you and I might not agree with their beliefs but they have every right to do so.

But (unless I missed a part of the video that did so) disproportionally portraying them to make them look worse feels very Islamaphobic to me.

A lesson that consists of "gay people exist". If your kids can't read a book that shows gay people existing what do you think that means about gay people out and about or in media? 



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Torillian said:
DrDoomz said:

They are protesting that they be given the choice of their children to opt out of a lesson they do no agree with (due to their beliefs). Now you and I might not agree with their beliefs but they have every right to do so.

But (unless I missed a part of the video that did so) disproportionally portraying them to make them look worse feels very Islamaphobic to me.

A lesson that consists of "gay people exist". If your kids can't read a book that shows gay people existing what do you think that means about gay people out and about or in media? 

That you do not want your kids to be exposed to something that you do not approve of? Or you want to control the age when your kids are exposed to something that is hard to explain and reconcile with your beliefs? There are more conclusions here than simply "all gays must vanish"...



DrDoomz said:
Torillian said:

A lesson that consists of "gay people exist". If your kids can't read a book that shows gay people existing what do you think that means about gay people out and about or in media? 

That you do not want your kids to be exposed to something that you do not approve of? Or you want to control the age when your kids are exposed to something that is hard to explain and reconcile with your beliefs? There are more conclusions here than simply "all gays must vanish"...

I think you're giving this an overly charitable view. When you protest the existence of gay people in a lesson at school it's a pretty reasonable thing to think you would prefer they don't exist. You're telling me if those protesters had a button that turned every gay person straight and they didn't have to ever explain to their kids about how this works, or "reconcile it with their beliefs" they wouldn't press that button? Seems like a pretty reasonable inductive conclusion to make about someone protesting their five year old learning gay people exist. 

If you disagree I'd be interested to hear an example in which you would protest your child learning about something but you take no issue with that thing existing. For myself, I guess I would protest if my kid was taught religious beliefs at preschool without my knowledge, but I would also press the hypothetical button that would turn all the religious people into atheists so that doesn't really fit.



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SpokenTruth said:
Azuren said:

And both the LGBT and Islamic communities are opposed to one another. One attempts to teach the other's children values that go against their religion, and they respond by claiming those values are evil.

The question I was trying to get across its which side do you take? The islamaphobic side attempting to affect the other side's religious beliefs, or the side who believes homosexuality is a son and doesn't want it taught to their children? Either way, you'll be oppressing a community that is marginalized in the UK.

I figured my side was pretty evident in the dialog I posted. 

So Islamaphobic.



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the-pi-guy said:
Azuren said:

Old Post, but we're talking about a main staple of the Islamic religion. Homosexuality is a hard no for them, and mocking them for their Islamic belief is islamophobia, isn't it?

Not all Muslims are against LGBT.  

Besides in the scheme of:

-being  against someone for existing (hating people for being LGBT.)

-being against someone for their beliefs (hating people for hating someone who exists.) 

The former wins out pretty much every time.  

You have a situation where one group exists and wants to be  accepted, and another group doesn't want that first group to exist, it's not -phobic anything to call the second group out.  

It's true that not all Muslims are against LGBT. It is against their doctrine, though, so it depends on how conservative they are in their religious beliefs.

And I believe the argument is they don't want their children taught that it isn't a sin, not that they don't necessarily don't want them to exist (in this case at least).

Don't get me wrong, either. I'll take the side of a homosexual looking before a conservative Muslim. But I also won't overlook people telling them how to raise their kids and attempting to override the parents. That said, if the parents don't want their kids to be supportive of LGBT, then maybe they should move somewhere that supports their disapproval.



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Torillian said:
DrDoomz said:

That you do not want your kids to be exposed to something that you do not approve of? Or you want to control the age when your kids are exposed to something that is hard to explain and reconcile with your beliefs? There are more conclusions here than simply "all gays must vanish"...

1) I think you're giving this an overly charitable view. When you protest the existence of gay people in a lesson at school it's a pretty reasonable thing to think you would prefer they don't exist. You're telling me if those protesters had a button that turned every gay person straight and they didn't have to ever explain to their kids about how this works, or "reconcile it with their beliefs" they wouldn't press that button? Seems like a pretty reasonable inductive conclusion to make about someone protesting their five year old learning gay people exist. 

2) If you disagree I'd be interested to hear an example in which you would protest your child learning about something but you take no issue with that thing existing. For myself, I guess I would protest if my kid was taught religious beliefs at preschool without my knowledge, but I would also press the hypothetical button that would turn all the religious people into atheists so that doesn't really fit.

1) I feel that's quite a stretch. Would the same logic apply for people who do not want religion taught in schools for example? How about those that do not like the NRA? Does that mean you want all NRA members/religious to disappear? Just because they do not like something, doesn't mean they wished that ill of the community or that they wish for the ppl to not exist. I don't like politicians, but it doesn't mean I wish the politicians themselves would disappear. It is far more believable that they wished that homosexuality itself (the concept/condition, not the people/group) to not exist (w/c is far less severe than wishing that a persecuted minority would just disappear). Again, you overstated and exaggerated the negativity of their position, painting broad strokes to make them look as bad as possible. W/c is a bit Islamophobic IMO.

2) The LGBT community aren't a "thing". They are a ppl/group. Homosexuality itself, however, is a concept/condition/lifestyle (or whatever word best describes it). Wishing that a lifestyle/concept/condition didn't exist and wishing that a group/ppl would just disappear are two different things. There are many who wish that religion itself didn't exist and that would be ok. I feel the same standard should be applied to lifestyles/conditions/concepts (or whatever word best describes). You even said so yourself, if you can press the button to turn the religious to athiests, you'd do it (imposing what you want on others). All these parents want is to have a choice on when their kids find out about it. 

Last edited by DrDoomz - on 07 June 2019