By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close
vivster said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

It was a straight Yes/No question, so continuing the status quo, independence or any other possibility (like a free association to the US) got rolled into one.

The problem with this referendum is that it was everything but clear what the outcome really  will be. Voting yes could be a path to statehood, but for now, it's just a continuation if the status quo. Voting No would have appointed  some people to turn Puerto Rico to either a Free Association or full independence.

As a result, voting Yes could be interpreted as staying a territory while no would be a vote for independence just as much as yes would be statehood and no staying a territory...

I think the question was pretty clear with no room for interpretation.

"Should Puerto Rico be admitted immediately into the Union as a State?"

It doesn't insinuate anything about independence. It just asks if they want to be a state now or or not. The "immediately" makes it clear that voting "no" is not a vote for independence, but for keeping the status quo. Even includes the option to join the Union at a later point.

Lawmakers from both parties have stated that statehood is up to them if they want. Of course it never came to an actual vote in congress because of ulterior motives from certain turtles. But it is very much clear that if PR states the collective desire to join the union, they will be able to do so, if the congress is in control of democrats. So a referendum will definitely count for a lot and voting Yes will definitely not keep the status quo.

However to drive this thing forward PR needs a sign from congress that if they decide to join the democrats will make it definitely happen. And they do have the absolute power to do so right now. A proper referendum with an appropriate turnout will only be possible with that kind of signal. 

I would consider the current referendum with barely above 50% voter turnout pretty much useless.

The question itself doesn't insinuate anything about independence, true. The thing is however, that a No would have triggered Puerto Rico Senate bill 1467, which states that a 7 member commission would need to be created to negotiate with the US for either a Free Association or Independence for Puerto Rico. The main idea of this vote was to resolve the status of Puerto Rico, one way or another.

Yes won, so Puerto Rico will most probably apply for statehood. But here it gets interesting: Puerto Rico is mostly latinx, which sounds good for the Democrats. But on the other hand, they're fairly right-wing, so it's actually better for Republicans. So, do you think a Democrat like Biden would go forward with the application for statehood, knowing it could cost him the next election?

This is why I say that it's ambiguous: Puerto Rico can apply for statehood, but the process can stay in limbo for a long time due to the political divide. A "No" would have a similar problem; what President would want to have in his resume that he lost some territory? So those negotiations would have stalled indefinitely for sure, too.



Around the Network
Bofferbrauer2 said:
vivster said:

I think the question was pretty clear with no room for interpretation.

"Should Puerto Rico be admitted immediately into the Union as a State?"

It doesn't insinuate anything about independence. It just asks if they want to be a state now or or not. The "immediately" makes it clear that voting "no" is not a vote for independence, but for keeping the status quo. Even includes the option to join the Union at a later point.

Lawmakers from both parties have stated that statehood is up to them if they want. Of course it never came to an actual vote in congress because of ulterior motives from certain turtles. But it is very much clear that if PR states the collective desire to join the union, they will be able to do so, if the congress is in control of democrats. So a referendum will definitely count for a lot and voting Yes will definitely not keep the status quo.

However to drive this thing forward PR needs a sign from congress that if they decide to join the democrats will make it definitely happen. And they do have the absolute power to do so right now. A proper referendum with an appropriate turnout will only be possible with that kind of signal. 

I would consider the current referendum with barely above 50% voter turnout pretty much useless.

The question itself doesn't insinuate anything about independence, true. The thing is however, that a No would have triggered Puerto Rico Senate bill 1467, which states that a 7 member commission would need to be created to negotiate with the US for either a Free Association or Independence for Puerto Rico. The main idea of this vote was to resolve the status of Puerto Rico, one way or another.

Yes won, so Puerto Rico will most probably apply for statehood. But here it gets interesting: Puerto Rico is mostly latinx, which sounds good for the Democrats. But on the other hand, they're fairly right-wing, so it's actually better for Republicans. So, do you think a Democrat like Biden would go forward with the application for statehood, knowing it could cost him the next election?

This is why I say that it's ambiguous: Puerto Rico can apply for statehood, but the process can stay in limbo for a long time due to the political divide. A "No" would have a similar problem; what President would want to have in his resume that he lost some territory? So those negotiations would have stalled indefinitely for sure, too.

I'm not sure you can apply political leanings in PR to the mainland parties. Sure, some might be right leaning and some might be conservative but that doesn't mean they would jump on to the Republicans. Don't forget that Republicans are an extremist party. An extremist party who did everything in their power to not grant them statehood because they hate them. The chance of PR becoming a red state after the democrats granted them statehood is basically zero. No democrat thinks that PR would ever turn red. Any sane democrat will want both PR and DC as a state to clutch the senate forever. Though there hasn't been a chance or much motivation in the past 20 years to do that.

Now is the right time. So I hope the ever stronger progressive side will push hard for it. It doesn't have to happen now, but maybe a nice goal for Biden's second term.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

The question itself doesn't insinuate anything about independence, true. The thing is however, that a No would have triggered Puerto Rico Senate bill 1467, which states that a 7 member commission would need to be created to negotiate with the US for either a Free Association or Independence for Puerto Rico. The main idea of this vote was to resolve the status of Puerto Rico, one way or another.

Yes won, so Puerto Rico will most probably apply for statehood. But here it gets interesting: Puerto Rico is mostly latinx, which sounds good for the Democrats. But on the other hand, they're fairly right-wing, so it's actually better for Republicans. So, do you think a Democrat like Biden would go forward with the application for statehood, knowing it could cost him the next election?

This is why I say that it's ambiguous: Puerto Rico can apply for statehood, but the process can stay in limbo for a long time due to the political divide. A "No" would have a similar problem; what President would want to have in his resume that he lost some territory? So those negotiations would have stalled indefinitely for sure, too.

I'm not sure you can apply political leanings in PR to the mainland parties. Sure, some might be right leaning and some might be conservative but that doesn't mean they would jump on to the Republicans. Don't forget that Republicans are an extremist party. An extremist party who did everything in their power to not grant them statehood because they hate them. The chance of PR becoming a red state after the democrats granted them statehood is basically zero. No democrat thinks that PR would ever turn red. Any sane democrat will want both PR and DC as a state to clutch the senate forever. Though there hasn't been a chance or much motivation in the past 20 years to do that.

Now is the right time. So I hope the ever stronger progressive side will push hard for it. It doesn't have to happen now, but maybe a nice goal for Biden's second term.

I'll have to dig to find it if you want a link, but when asked about this a couple years ago, Puerto Ricans actually identified somewhat more as Republicans than Democrats.

In fact, most politicians in Puerto Rico are affiliatied with either one or the other. And despite it's name, the New Progressive Party (the party who supports statehood) has about 2/3rd of it's members being Republicans. Their biggest opponent, the Popular Democratic Party is firmly in support of the status quo and dominated by democrats. This males it quite a bit more difficult for the democrats to openly support statehood, as it would be backstabbing their biggest supporting party.

Of course, having a Democrat granting them statehood would make that one pretty certain of getting the vote from PR. But there's no guarantee this boost will last long considering where most democrats in Puerto Rico stand on this question.

Another thing to note is that during the latest house elections, both parties took a heavy hit with 2 new parties emerging and stealing about 15% of the votes right off the bat, and the independence party more than doubling in votes. In other words, the island is very split in this question.

As for DC, you're right that the democrats have a guaranteed vote here. Even Reagan could only get the democrat dominance in that state down to low 80's, and normally it's over 90% Democratic.



vivster said:
KLAMarine said:

"Then present a good argument, backed up by evidence."

>Will try to if the situation calls for it...


"And who do you think is 'correct' more often, smart people having studied the subject they are talking about, or people repeating tweets with a personal agenda."

>More often? The former, sure. Still not a guarantee, smart people who have studied a subject are perfectly capable of carrying an agenda of their own... And these two aren't the only choices we have right?

It doesn't matter how many choices there are when you should always go with the obvious best choice.

I mean, that's the whole issue. People going for alternative choices and ignoring the best choice just because it's alternative.

One man's best choice is another man's alternative choice.



KLAMarine said:
vivster said:

It doesn't matter how many choices there are when you should always go with the obvious best choice.

I mean, that's the whole issue. People going for alternative choices and ignoring the best choice just because it's alternative.

One man's best choice is another man's alternative choice.

And try as I like, a small crack appears in my diplomacy-dike.
"By definition", I begin,
"Alternative Medicine", I continue,
"Has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work.
Do you know what they call 'alternative medicine' that's been proved to work?
Medicine."

 - Tim Minchin



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Around the Network
Runa216 said:
KLAMarine said:

One man's best choice is another man's alternative choice.

And try as I like, a small crack appears in my diplomacy-dike.
"By definition", I begin,
"Alternative Medicine", I continue,
"Has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work.
Do you know what they call 'alternative medicine' that's been proved to work?
Medicine."

 - Tim Minchin

A shame medicine and politics are not wholly comparable... Hell, even medicine is not clear-cut and obvious...



KLAMarine said:
vivster said:

It doesn't matter how many choices there are when you should always go with the obvious best choice.

I mean, that's the whole issue. People going for alternative choices and ignoring the best choice just because it's alternative.

One man's best choice is another man's alternative choice.

Some best choices are objectively best, but get rejected by people who don't want to be rational.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
KLAMarine said:

One man's best choice is another man's alternative choice.

Some best choices are objectively best, but get rejected by people who don't want to be rational.

Sure but the objectively best choice is not always obvious.



Trump enacts last second policy changes before leaving office, removes LGBTQ discrimination protections.

Disgusting human being to the very core. Yeah, I know, Biden will quickly overturn these when he takes office, but it still doesn't make Trump any less of a reprehensible monster. Who'm I kidding? I didn't think it was possible for him to be any more of one, but he keeps setting the bar lower and lower.

There's no place in Hell hot enough for him.



KLAMarine said:
vivster said:

Some best choices are objectively best, but get rejected by people who don't want to be rational.

Sure but the objectively best choice is not always obvious.

Not for irrational people, yes. Doesn't mean that their choice isn't still very wrong.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.