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PAOerfulone said:
Zoombael said:

How do you know that? Police didn't see him as imminent threat when he pulled the knife on them. They would've shot him, prbly not trying to taser him first. The threat level changed when he walked to the drivers side and tried to enter the vehicle. It was impossible for the police to know if there was a gun in the car or no. More importantly however, as a deadly weapon a car has a lot more potential than a small knife.

There were 3 officers, all armed and trained, against 1 man. You're telling me that with all their combined effort, they aren't capable of simply disarming him, cuffing him, and taking him to jail so he can answer to the law? They're trained to deescalate the situation and stop any conflict before it gets out of hand in the safest way possible. This entire situation could have easily been avoided if they had just non-lethally apprehended him and taken him to jail from the start. 

They shouldn't have even let him get to the driver's side and let the situation get that far in the first place. And it most certainly doesn't justify putting 7 bullets in his back. Going by what you're saying, they'd have to be rock stupid to let him get into his car, start it, and let him have the chance to cause real damage. If they're really that incompetent, they've got no business wearing a badge. 

They're certainly trained to take a suspect armed with a knife seriously. Unlike the average joe, who is prone to underestimate stabbing weapons. The police tried to apprehend him, JB resisted and pulled out his knife, police pulled out their guns and tasers, tried to tase him, didn't work. End of story.

The entire situation could've been even more easily avoided. NOT resisting arest! Now i can call myself Captain Hindsight, too, like the rest of you. Dusting of my hands and feel good about myself.

Hiku said:
Zoombael said:

Getting chased by a violent mob armed with all sorts of weapons and criminal records, a gun being fired behind him while running away.

You bringing up criminal records as a reason for why this is self defense is strange, considering the shooter wouldn't have the slightest idea about any of that when he made the decision to kill people.

And what some people don't seem to understand is that self defense has to be reasonable.

Someone tries to slap you in the face, but you knock their hand away = reasonable self defense
Someone tries to slap you in the face, but you shoot them in the head = not reasonable self defense

People running after you by itself is not enough to claim self defense if you murder one of them. The killer would have to prove that his life was in danger, or that he reasonably believed it was, and also that he had exhausted all other options before murdering the man, who was unarmed.
As far as I know, we don't yet know why he was running and why they were following him. Maybe he already fired his gun at someone else, or threatened to do so, etc.

I don't know about you, but pointing an AR-15 at an unarmed person will probably be enough to make them back off. You don't actually have to kill them. Maybe in an extreme case, you'd fire a warning shot.
You should also not murder an unarmed person for having a plastic bag thrown at you. According to the police report, that was the object being thrown in the video. ("Rosenbaum appears to throw an object at the defendant. The object does not hit the defendant and a second video shows, based on where the object landed, that it was a plastic bag".)

It's possible that the killer thought that the gunshot fired at the sky by another person standing further away was aimed at him, but it was not, and it is not reasonable to shoot an unarmed person just because you heard a gunshot. That's not self defense but the exact reason why idiots should not bring guns to these places.

For the second killing, the argument by the killers defenders is that it is self defense to kill someone for trying to stop/disarm you after you murdered someone.
It is not.

The people in the video are heard telling people he shot someone, and they seemingly try to grab his gun when he falls over. One of the people trying to stop him were seemingly holding a gun, but they did not fire at the killer for the duration of the video, even after he fell over. Unfortunately the killer didn't have the same regard for human life and didn't hesitate to shoot and kill them when they got close enough to take away his weapon.

The killer is currently charged on these counts:

Count 1: FIRST DEGREE RECKLESS HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
Count 2: FIRST DEGREE RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING SAFETY, USE OF A DANGEROUS
WEAPON
Count 3: FIRST DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON
Count 4: ATTEMPT FIRST DEGREE INTENTIONAL HOMICIDE, USE OF A DANGEROUS
WEAPON
Count 6: POSSESSION OF A DANGEROUS WEAPON BY A PERSON UNDER 18
Count 7: FIRST DEGREE MURDER <---- (Newly added, after authorities reviewed the evidence.)

This 17 year old illegally carried the weapon, and then fled state lines after killing several people.

...who got attacked and kicked unconscious by "peaceful protesters"
killed in a live stream as he tried to prevent "peaceful protesters"

Do not try to conflate peaceful protesters with the violent ones.
This kind of dishonest generalization and dehumanization has no place here. Don't do it again.

Pointing out the criminal history is trivial to anyone incapable of acknowledging the importance of context. It is an indicator of the criminal and violent potential within the mob. We see them start fires (right next to a gas station) and behaving aggressively, maybe because someone is standing between them and their precious loot. Rosenbaum, the first one shot, at the front behaving aggressive, showing disregard for his own life by words ("shoot me n*****, shoot me") and later by action. He propably thought babyfaced Rittenhouse is gonna be a pushover.

We constantly see violent rioters/looters causing serious injuries and even death. Where are your indicators this was not life-or-death in this very moment from Kyles perspective? They wanted to disarm him, nothing else? How do you know? You must be clairvoyant... 

"I don't know about you, but pointing an AR-15 at an unarmed person will probably be enough to make them back off."

Unless i was given no other choice... I know i wouldn't be so suicidal to head on attack someone armed with a gun, or a knife, or anything that clearly puts me at a disadvantage.

"That's not self defense but the exact reason why idiots should not bring guns to these places."

Well, there would be no need to, if police could do their job unobstructed. Now people complaining about the consequences of their own doing. Splendid.

"The people in the video are heard telling people he shot someone, and they seemingly try to grab his gun when he falls over. One of the people trying to stop him were seemingly holding a gun, but they did not fire at the killer for the duration of the video, even after he fell over. Unfortunately the killer didn't have the same regard for human life and didn't hesitate to shoot and kill them when they got close enough to take away his weapon."

Actually, when taking a closer look, Kyle aims his weapon at Gaige (guy with pistole), who puts his hands in the air as sign of surrender (with gun in right hand), Kyle does not shoot and lowers the rifle, then Gaige re-engages and quickly moves his arms down, Kyle reacts and shoots him in the biceps. We see Gaige come running the moment Kyle is on the ground and attacked. Did he have a clear shot? Why did he pull the gun out, for what purpose? According to a Buddy of Gaige, the one thing he regrets is "not killing the kid".

https://www.rt.com/usa/499259-kenosha-victim-facebook-killing-kid/

He wanted to disarm and apprehend him? What for? Kyle himself told Gaige that he is going to the police.

But no, we have to play the righteous vigilante and attack the heavily armed guy who poses no threat... because someone said so.

"Do not try to conflate peaceful protesters with the violent ones.
This kind of dishonest generalization and dehumanization has no place here. Don't do it again."

That is your misguiding interpretation, but your misinformation is not my doing. Since BLM as organisation has never stepped forward to condemn violent acts and distance themselves - when going by their own words and their own slogan "silence is violence" is evidently in support of rioting and looting -, i don't see anything wrong with pointing out the true purpose behind the "peaceful protests".



Hunting Season is done...

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Zoombael said:
PAOerfulone said:

There were 3 officers, all armed and trained, against 1 man. You're telling me that with all their combined effort, they aren't capable of simply disarming him, cuffing him, and taking him to jail so he can answer to the law? They're trained to deescalate the situation and stop any conflict before it gets out of hand in the safest way possible. This entire situation could have easily been avoided if they had just non-lethally apprehended him and taken him to jail from the start. 

They shouldn't have even let him get to the driver's side and let the situation get that far in the first place. And it most certainly doesn't justify putting 7 bullets in his back. Going by what you're saying, they'd have to be rock stupid to let him get into his car, start it, and let him have the chance to cause real damage. If they're really that incompetent, they've got no business wearing a badge. 

They're certainly trained to take a suspect armed with a knife seriously. Unlike the average joe, who is prone to underestimate stabbing weapons. The police tried to apprehend him, JB resisted and pulled out his knife, police pulled out their guns and tasers, tried to tase him, didn't work. End of story.

The entire situation could've been even more easily avoided. NOT resisting arrest! Now i can call myself Captain Hindsight, too, like the rest of you. Dusting of my hands and feel good about myself.

If tazing didn't work, then they could have simply circled him, ripped the knife out of his hand, tackle him to the ground, THEN cuff him. Which they should have done while he was down on his knees. Or here's another idea, why not tackle him down from behind while he was walking around his car? Or if using their guns was absolutely necessary, shoot for the hand that has the knife and disarm him THAT way. And leave it at that. But don't fucking shoot him in the back 7 times. And don't even let him get to car door in the first place. At that point, they weren't trying to apprehend him, they were trying to kill him. And when does an individual resisting arrest justify trying to kill him/her? I wasn't aware that a death sentence was a suitable punishment for being a stupid dipshit. Sure, the situation could have been more easily avoided if JB hadn't resisted. But how the cops poorly responded after that only made the situation so much worse than it should have been. All parties involved are guilty. Blake for being a dumbass and not complying with the police; And the police for badly handling the situation and damn near killing a man when there were much simpler, non-lethal ways they could have gone about it.

Last edited by PAOerfulone - on 02 September 2020

JWeinCom said:
Lonely_Dolphin said:

"If" he's a criminal!? xD

1. Never said otherwise.

2. I even pointed out how the cops failed to prevent escalation in this instance.

3. What are you trying to say here, that the timing of the riots are just pure coincidence and are totally not in support of criminals? Bruh they have George's face on t-shirts. Even when believing that, it's still stupid to destroy random private businesses that have nothing to do with those who wronged you and have only to do with the people you're supposedly in support of.

The main point I'm making is criminals aren't naive children who just don't know better and can't help themselves, they share in the blame for these incidents, yet the riots would have you believe only one side is truely responsible. 

To say the protests are "in support of criminals" is an incredibly poor and misleading way to phrase it.

For example, I support a rapist's right to a fair trial. To say based on this that I support rapists would be incredibly misleading.

Similarly, if someone supports George Floyd's right not to have a knee on his neck for 8 minutes, it is misleading to say that they support criminals. Supporting the fair treatment of criminals and suspected criminals would be more accurate. 

The criminal's share of the blame ends where excessive force begins. That's simply by definition. If someone has legitimately committed a crime, it is their fault if they get arrested. If they were not posing a threat and are shot or killed, that part is 100% on the the police.

You're calling them "protest" and wanna talk to me about misleading lol. I'm not one to get hung up on semantics so I don't care what people call them. For you though I'll rephrase and say rioting and looting in response to cops poorly handling criminals that happen to be black. Either way I think most people could understand the point I was making. 



The newest outrage seems to be the President suggesting to people to vote twice. First by mail and then in person. This is actually really interesting, because he actually has a valid point here. The US democracy is in such a bad place that it is actually possible for valid sent in mail vote to not count because they came in late thanks to a sabotaged postal service.

Think about that for a second. You take your time, you inform yourself, you get your mail ballot, you send it in and there is a real chance that your vote will not count. This is so surreal. Surreal enough that the suggestion by a talking orange actually makes sense and should probably be followed.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
The newest outrage seems to be the President suggesting to people to vote twice. First by mail and then in person. This is actually really interesting, because he actually has a valid point here. The US democracy is in such a bad place that it is actually possible for valid sent in mail vote to not count because they came in late thanks to a sabotaged postal service.

Think about that for a second. You take your time, you inform yourself, you get your mail ballot, you send it in and there is a real chance that your vote will not count. This is so surreal. Surreal enough that the suggestion by a talking orange actually makes sense and should probably be followed.

It probably should not be followed because in North Carolina at least it's a felony punishable by up to two years in prison...



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TallSilhouette said:

After the RNC spent half of its convention trying to convince black Americans he's not racist.

Demographics of the US are shifting. The only plays possible are drastically improve among white voters, or change their platform to bring in other races. It's clear the path that Trump will take. If it doesn't work, it could literally be the end of the party.



Funny how the guy who has spend the last 4 years fearmongering about voter fraud is now promoting voter fraud to get reelected 🤡

Last edited by Vinther1991 - on 03 September 2020

JWeinCom said:
vivster said:
The newest outrage seems to be the President suggesting to people to vote twice. First by mail and then in person. This is actually really interesting, because he actually has a valid point here. The US democracy is in such a bad place that it is actually possible for valid sent in mail vote to not count because they came in late thanks to a sabotaged postal service.

Think about that for a second. You take your time, you inform yourself, you get your mail ballot, you send it in and there is a real chance that your vote will not count. This is so surreal. Surreal enough that the suggestion by a talking orange actually makes sense and should probably be followed.

It probably should not be followed because in North Carolina at least it's a felony punishable by up to two years in prison...

Then that law needs to be abolished unless they have a guarantee that your mail ballot counts.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

coolbeans said:
Runa216 said:
If this is discussion about the Kenosha killer dude...yeah. Guys, he literally was a minor with an AR-15 assault rifle, deliberately travelling to a location with intent to stir up shit. Whether the actual 'killing' was in self defense or not, literally everything I've read on the matter makes it clear he went to Kenosha with bad intents. He WANTED someone to attack him. he WANTED an excuse to kill someone.

What happened beyond that is irrelevant, when it comes to culpability. If you are defending him, then you are on the wrong side. Period. Fullstop.

Hilarious to bring up the 'wrong side of history' after such dishonest framing here.  It doesn't matter what justified responses a person makes (duty to retreat, etc.) to some of you people; if he's not in the club no excuse will satisfy.  

Kyle Rittenhouse was absolutely defending himself and the ire ought to be on the now-maimed & killed dips who escalated this situation.  Period.

It doesn't matter if he was defending himself in the moment, he travelled far with an assault rifle with intent to stir up shit. Do you not understand how law works? Do you not understand the concept of mens rea? It means he had intention and knowingly did a bad thing and thus is culpable for his actions. Any jury and any judge would take one look at the evidence we have and say 'yeah, he clearly  wanted this to happen' and throw his ass in jail. 

You don't get to perfectly equip yourself for a fight, travel a long distance, go to a place where tensions are already high, and wave a gun around then claim self defense if someone attacks you. 

That's not how the law works. That's not how logic or rationality works. You're being remarkably dense and I genuinely don't understand how you could possibly think you're right here. 



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Shooting someone in the head with a rifle for throwing a plastic bag at you is not self defense. That shouldn't need to be explained.