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Just to clarify further on my point...smoking alone is a major problem among >30% of people living in poverty. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/low-ses/index.htm

These are people that "can't afford" the basic requirements of life...but can somehow afford $10 packs of cigarettes. Not only is smoking itself extremely expensive, but its health impacts are massive (not to mention it leads to more expensive health insurance).



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

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Baalzamon said:
Just to clarify further on my point...smoking alone is a major problem among >30% of people living in poverty. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/low-ses/index.htm

These are people that "can't afford" the basic requirements of life...but can somehow afford $10 packs of cigarettes. Not only is smoking itself extremely expensive, but its health impacts are massive (not to mention it leads to more expensive health insurance).

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but it is also incredibly addictive...



sundin13 said:
Baalzamon said:
Just to clarify further on my point...smoking alone is a major problem among >30% of people living in poverty. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/low-ses/index.htm

These are people that "can't afford" the basic requirements of life...but can somehow afford $10 packs of cigarettes. Not only is smoking itself extremely expensive, but its health impacts are massive (not to mention it leads to more expensive health insurance).

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but it is also incredibly addictive...

Very aware. But we are having an argument about life's necessities being too expensive, and its important to note that this is largely driven by a huge chunk of people making extremely shitty choices throughout their life, thus not feeling like they are really any better off than they were 20 years ago.

While some of these choices are due to society as a whole just having weird views about what is appropriate/normal, I have a difficult time understanding how any person could ever start smoking in today's era (unless they really like it AND have the money to afford it) with the extremely massive amount of propaganda out there about how horrible it is for you.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Baalzamon said:
sundin13 said:

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but it is also incredibly addictive...

Very aware. But we are having an argument about life's necessities being too expensive, and its important to note that this is largely driven by a huge chunk of people making extremely shitty choices throughout their life, thus not feeling like they are really any better off than they were 20 years ago.

While some of these choices are due to society as a whole just having weird views about what is appropriate/normal, I have a difficult time understanding how any person could ever start smoking in today's era (unless they really like it AND have the money to afford it) with the extremely massive amount of propaganda out there about how horrible it is for you.

I don't think you can point to addictive and predatory vices as being evidence that the poor are actually fine. I think it evidence of the opposite. It indicates to me, that large scale structural issues are in place which are both preventing individuals from having the tools to make good decisions (we see this often in things like youth pregnancy and its relation to poverty) and the tools to correct their life once it starts upon a troubling path. There are many factors which contribute to an individual starting smoking, and to whether an individual is able to quit smoking, and I am not aware of any which correlate income below the poverty level and decreases in smoking rates. These factors almost exclusively, if not exclusively, put pressure in the opposite direction.



zorg1000 said:
SpokenTruth said:

Have you seen the rate of increase in healthcare costs, housing, education, etc...  Are wages keeping pace with those?  So it doesn't mean shit if you make 20% more now than 10 years ago if your housing costs have gone up 40%, insurance up 100%, education up even more.

Yep, in the last ~50 years, adjusted for inflation, healthcare has gone up like 500%, housing gone up over 100%, college tuition gone up like 150% and wages have gone up like 35%.

I just wanted to visit the housing part of this, as there is a reason I brought it up with the square footage.

There is this wild saying that housing is increasing so much faster than inflation.

Home sizes (https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/todays-new-homes-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-the-living-space-per-person-has-doubled-over-last-40-years/) have increased from 1,660 square feet in 1973 to 2,679 square feet in 2013 (despite less people actually living in the average house). When calculating home prices on a per square foot basis...they absolutely have NOT increased 100% over the last 50 years adjusted for inflation.

In addition to the per square foot price actually staying near the same over the last 40-50 years, interest rates have actually gone from 8.5% in 1970, down to around 4% today.

This means for how much house you are actually getting today, your true cost of a mortgage has actually...decreased...over the last 40-50 years.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

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Then lets work on those issues. Lets stop putting the blame game on life's necessities being too expensive, and instead point where the real problem is. People are spending way too much of their money on extremely wasteful things, potentially due to social or economic factors that we need to invest more time and money into understanding.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Baalzamon said:
Then lets work on those issues. Lets stop putting the blame game on life's necessities being too expensive, and instead point where the real problem is. People are spending way too much of their money on extremely wasteful things, potentially due to social or economic factors that we need to invest more time and money into understanding.

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Necessities can both be too expensive, and other factors can lead to high smoking rates in areas of high poverty.

Baalzamon said:
zorg1000 said:

Yep, in the last ~50 years, adjusted for inflation, healthcare has gone up like 500%, housing gone up over 100%, college tuition gone up like 150% and wages have gone up like 35%.

I just wanted to visit the housing part of this, as there is a reason I brought it up with the square footage.

There is this wild saying that housing is increasing so much faster than inflation.

Home sizes (https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/todays-new-homes-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-the-living-space-per-person-has-doubled-over-last-40-years/) have increased from 1,660 square feet in 1973 to 2,679 square feet in 2013 (despite less people actually living in the average house). When calculating home prices on a per square foot basis...they absolutely have NOT increased 100% over the last 50 years adjusted for inflation.

In addition to the per square foot price actually staying near the same over the last 40-50 years, interest rates have actually gone from 8.5% in 1970, down to around 4% today.

This means for how much house you are actually getting today, your true cost of a mortgage has actually...decreased...over the last 40-50 years.

Now, is that because owning a house has moved away from being something that anyone can do into something that is only for the well off? If you look at this idea that housing costs have been increasing faster than inflation, and you look at the information stating that the average square footage of houses have increased, what this indicates to me is that certain demographics are being left out of the market. That would explain both trends, while simultaneously indicating that necessities such as housing are too expensive for many people.

The information that you are providing is not in and of itself evidence supporting your argument. You need to start asking "Is there another explanation" when you bring up this information...



Baalzamon said:
My attitude regarding this is based on seeing and hearing oftentimes what people who struggle live like.

It's based on seeing people go out every weekend. Drive new cars. Live in giant houses. Buy lottery tickets. Smoke cigarettes. Buy $5 coffees. Get brand new electronics all the time. Eating out all the time. Screw around at work and manage to get fired. Be jobless and refuse to apply for temp jobs that are "below" them. Go on expensive vacations. Have more kids than a normal person could afford. Doing drugs. Drinking too much. Getting $100 gym memberships instead of exercising outside. Getting pets they can't afford. (Do you get the point here, I can go on, but these are things that even many families pulling in $20k a year partake in).

This isn't an all inclusive thing. I get it, some people have really SHITTY circumstances that can result in life becoming very difficult. But the large majority of people? They make CHOICES, which then result in them struggling.

How about instead of blaming people, we bring the cost of necessities back down to an acceptable level?



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Baalzamon said:
My attitude regarding this is based on seeing and hearing oftentimes what people who struggle live like.

It's based on seeing people go out every weekend. Drive new cars. Live in giant houses. Buy lottery tickets. Smoke cigarettes. Buy $5 coffees. Get brand new electronics all the time. Eating out all the time. Screw around at work and manage to get fired. Be jobless and refuse to apply for temp jobs that are "below" them. Go on expensive vacations. Have more kids than a normal person could afford. Doing drugs. Drinking too much. Getting $100 gym memberships instead of exercising outside. Getting pets they can't afford. (Do you get the point here, I can go on, but these are things that even many families pulling in $20k a year partake in).

This isn't an all inclusive thing. I get it, some people have really SHITTY circumstances that can result in life becoming very difficult. But the large majority of people? They make CHOICES, which then result in them struggling.

I have two jobs, I have literally no days off. I'm not kidding, every. single. day. I have to clock into work. I'm afraid of even getting a cold. I'm still struggling with the costs of living. But I just got a new phone bc my jobs demand it. I guess I'm just a lazy piece of shit.

You don't have the moral high ground just because you were born into privilege. Instead learn from others who have less than you and become more compassionate and empathize with their struggles. You could always help us out with your vote you know, just saying. 



 

The US pulling the old "weapons of mass destruction" bullshit with Iran.

History repeats itself.

Last edited by tsogud - on 04 January 2020