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Forums - Politics - Active shooter situation reported in Christchurch, New Zealand

Pemalite on 16 March 2019
jason1637 said:

Well if a criminal illegally has a gun and you got a gun legally and then they pull up on a family member with a gun you can defend yourself and your family with your gun. The legal system won't do much to help you in that moment.

Except the statistics in Australia don't lie. The overwhelming evidence is that Gun Control reduces gun related deaths, meaning your family is safer.

With gun control, criminals are less likely to own a gun.. Because it's a much more difficult process to obtain one.
However... By that same line of thinking, you are still fully entitled to own a gun, you just have to go through a process that ensures you are a mentally fit person to hold a weapon and have the appropriate precautions put in place to have said weapons secured.

Gun control doesn't mean guns are illegal to own... Which I think is ultimately the crux of the American line of thinking.

Anyway... Just because you own a gun, doesn't mean you are immune from being shot first before being able to pull it out... And then having the criminal proceed to shoot the rest of your family anyway.

If it wasn't for the fact I work in multiple emergency services agencies and thus often work with the Police, I would probably never even see a gun... Overwhelmingly, Gun control has worked in Australia, continues to work... And if you were to poll the citizens of this country on what they think, they would be supportive of gun control by a vast majority... You just don't see the weapons in the public limelight... Even robberies tend to use more primitive weapons more often than not due to how difficult it is to obtain guns.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

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Immersiveunreality on 16 March 2019
HylianSwordsman said:
Immersiveunreality said:

First bolded:Oh alright yes but this lunatic could have pulled the same advocacy out of a childrens book so i do not think this is something valid to put the focus on and surely not when the motive for what he did suggested he wanted people to attack eachother for political differences.

Second bolded: A matter of perception i guess,i rather call it stupid.

Lets end this with agreeing on her being an idiot. :p

I think Twitter is an easier place to draw it from than a children's book. Twitter is super toxic. Can we all agree on that?

First: Yes

Second: No 



o_O.Q on 17 March 2019
Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:
i hate to be that guy that defends people like candace owens(personally i think she's just an attention seeker and she's banking off of how polarised people are becoming) but i'm concerned with how people are completely willing to jump to conclusions about others so hastily... that is a massive problem and it is going to bite a lot of the people championing it in the ass if it goes too far
the presumption of innocence and giving the benefit of doubt are things for a reason and we are throwing them away carelessly

That's all well and good, but it's something that people with these beliefs take for granted as well. Not everyone will shout from the rooftops that they're a bigot, sometimes they like to be more coded with it and that doesn't mean it's any less problematic. 

This is an imperfect analogy, but it's similar to the comparison of racism in the 1930's and now. Used to be that racism was a lot more blatant and easy to spot. Looking now, we have made gigantic strides and it's obvious that things are better, but racism still exists in many fields. It's seen when people get less call backs if they have a black sounding name, or in how the justice system interacts with black vs. white people for drug crimes. These things are not obvious "well the police are all card carrying KKK members" but they are still problems that should be addressed.

In a similar way, it's all well and good to presume innocent until proven guilty, but very few people are going to be an obvious 1930's bigot. Now we're dealing with a more sophisticated problem that takes deeper inspection than "well she didn't say to kill all *insert crazy racist slur for brown people here*" so she probably doesn't have any problematic views towards muslims. 

in group preferences are never going to go away though

do you prefer your own family over a family from another country for example?

that's the problem... a lot of these ideas are rooted in this infantile utopian idea that if we just got the social controls right then we could make everyone equal and no discrimination would occur, there'd be no classes etc

all it will result in is more division and unnecessary conflict because people do not work like that and there's a reason we don't

 

" Now we're dealing with a more sophisticated problem that takes deeper inspection"

which i'm noticing with many people is just code for... "jump to conclusions about anyone with a different perspective than me"

 

"than "well she didn't say to kill all *insert crazy racist slur for brown people here*" so she probably doesn't have any problematic views towards muslims."

you haven't provided any evidence to validate your conclusion 



o_O.Q on 17 March 2019
HylianSwordsman said:
o_O.Q said:

"Because she likes to dog whistle"

in what sense? you think candace owens... a black woman( i bring up race because you did later on and its generally the focus when "dog whistling" is brought up) is a white supremacist?

Well dog whistle is just slang for saying something you think isn't okay to say without actually saying it. It doesn't have to apply specifically to race.

"obvious racist shit"

islam is not a race and candace owens is black

Yeah it's not. But there's 2 billion practicing Muslims out there and they all tend to come from the same regions for the most part, so it's easy to profile them and be prejudiced against them, and people do. It kind of becomes an ethnicity or nationality thing at some point. Like when we used to be prejudiced against Italians, you know? Except this time the rationale is based in a religion, that's usually connected by region and culture, so it's not racist but it's still ethnic, and when you're dealing with a group that's 2 billion strong, and most of them aren't extremists, it's not really fair to just treat them all like they're some kind of menace.

"I'm giving you how her post could be viewed as anti-muslim"

the things people say can very often very easily be twisted to fit whatever conclusions we need to justify going after someone... what most people pushing this don't seem to get is that this can happen to you too

This is what I meant earlier about people thinking that toxicity spreads outside the internet. They're not "going after Candace Owens" they're just denouncing all the toxicity on Twitter and the effect it seems to have on the world. I mean the crazy guy flat out name-dropped her, no? So obviously even if most people aren't twisting it to fit their conclusions, he was, and while she may not have meant it to be taken that exact way, she definitely meant something toxic by it, or "mean" as you said earlier.

"but this idea that she's never said anything on Muslims or the second amendment"

which i didn't say, and i don't follow candace owens... to be honest i don't really care about her, i saw one interview with her and that's it

I wasn't totally following the whole conversation so I don't know where the 2nd amendment comes in, but you asked a couple times about her thoughts on Muslims, and there seems to be a larger conversation going on about the potential connection of that tweet and the shooters actions since I mentioned it. I think here he's actually just referring to that tweet he quoted, it isn't related to anything you said specifically.

"Again, if they said they need to combat them because otherwise they'll be majority Chinese"

i asked you a direct question which you have not addressed here so i'll repeat it again

"when people talk about combating declining birth rates in japan do you believe they are advocating for the mass rape of japanese women?"

He probably thought that was rhetorical. It sounds rhetorical. No, they're not talking about mass rape of Japanese women, no one thinks that, he doesn't either, I'll bet my bottom dollar he doesn't, that would be silly. He seems to agree with me that if the shooter saw that tweet I mentioned earlier, he could draw the conclusion that she meant genocide, and he made an imperfect analogy. It's still a pretty fair analogy though.

"It doesn't have to apply specifically to race."

which i didn't say...

 

" so it's easy to profile them and be prejudiced against them, and people do."

 if i asked you to distinguish between a christian and an atheist could you do it? could you identify 3 criteria which could be used to distinguish between the two?

 

"and when you're dealing with a group that's 2 billion strong, and most of them aren't extremists, it's not really fair to just treat them all like they're some kind of menace."

you didn't answer my question when i asked you if you would like to see the influence of the christian religion grow

what is your answer?

 

"and while she may not have meant it to be taken that exact way, she definitely meant something toxic by it"

what toxic intent did she have?

 

" No, they're not talking about mass rape of Japanese women, no one thinks that, he doesn't either, I'll bet my bottom dollar he doesn't, that would be silly."

as silly as stating that you want an army to be formed to combat birth rates? or less silly

and why would you make the assumption that its not about advocating rape of japanese women? with candace owens you are choosing to ignore her stated intent and just forming your own conclusions so why not do that here?

 

"He seems to agree with me that if the shooter saw that tweet I mentioned earlier, he could draw the conclusion that she meant genocide"

based on what? as i stated earlier the focus of her tweet was declining birth rates, for the second time can you explain how that equates to genocide?



o_O.Q on 17 March 2019
Torillian said:
Immersiveunreality said:

First bolded:Oh alright yes but this lunatic could have pulled the same advocacy out of a childrens book so i do not think this is something valid to put the focus on and surely not when the motive for what he did suggested he wanted people to attack eachother for political differences.

Second bolded: A matter of perception i guess,i rather call it stupid.

Lets end this with agreeing on her being an idiot. :p

I think my overall issue is that I believe there's a connection between people who fear monger about muslims and crazy people that shoot them. So I can't look at someone saying "If France doesn't get their shit together they'll be majority muslim" as totally unrelated to some crazy dickhead killing a bunch of muslims. It's similar to how I think there's a connection between someone calling an abortion doctor "baby killer" over and over again and some crazy asshole killing said doctor. I highly doubt that Candice's brief foray into this particular brand of conservative douchebaggery has had an affect on anyone really, but the general sentiment she's espousing, that muslims are coming to take over all the nice white European countries that need to protect their culture, is definitely to blame for what this dickhead did. 

atheists constantly claim that christianity needs to be destroyed for society to progress forwards

are you ready to put the blame of recent church shootings on to the atheist community?



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Torillian on 17 March 2019
o_O.Q said:
Torillian said:

I think my overall issue is that I believe there's a connection between people who fear monger about muslims and crazy people that shoot them. So I can't look at someone saying "If France doesn't get their shit together they'll be majority muslim" as totally unrelated to some crazy dickhead killing a bunch of muslims. It's similar to how I think there's a connection between someone calling an abortion doctor "baby killer" over and over again and some crazy asshole killing said doctor. I highly doubt that Candice's brief foray into this particular brand of conservative douchebaggery has had an affect on anyone really, but the general sentiment she's espousing, that muslims are coming to take over all the nice white European countries that need to protect their culture, is definitely to blame for what this dickhead did. 

atheists constantly claim that christianity needs to be destroyed for society to progress forwards

are you ready to put the blame of recent church shootings on to the atheist community?

If you could find me a shooter that shot up a church because they wanted to dismantle the institution of christianity I'm happy to consider the ramifications of such rhetoric. I think you know there's a much more direct line between people that shoot muslims and the fear mongering that occurs about them than atheists saying that the institutions of religion should be destroyed and people shooting church goers. If you can make that connection though I'm happy to consider it. 

This isn't about blame, it's about trying to get to the root cause of a problem rather than letting things end with "wow what a crazy bastard, guess we can't do anything about it". Whether that's gun control, mental health, or trying to curb the overly fearful rhetoric around the group that he shot up.



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Immersiveunreality on 17 March 2019
Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:

atheists constantly claim that christianity needs to be destroyed for society to progress forwards

are you ready to put the blame of recent church shootings on to the atheist community?

If you could find me a shooter that shot up a church because they wanted to dismantle the institution of christianity I'm happy to consider the ramifications of such rhetoric. I think you know there's a much more direct line between people that shoot muslims and the fear mongering that occurs about them than atheists saying that the institutions of religion should be destroyed and people shooting church goers. If you can make that connection though I'm happy to consider it. 

This isn't about blame, it's about trying to get to the root cause of a problem rather than letting things end with "wow what a crazy bastard, guess we can't do anything about it". Whether that's gun control, mental health, or trying to curb the overly fearful rhetoric around the group that he shot up.

He seemed like a normal dude that apeared to have changed after one of his travels,that is an acceptable timeframe for the rootcause to be situated in but it is so vague that more information in the coming days/weeks/months would be very welcome and there is also a chance that it had to do with nothing of influence outside of his own mind as people that suffer a lot of stress and have mental breakdowns can have episodes of acting shizophrenic and plainly as an whole other person for years and years and if no one notices the first signs, that in a lot of cases can be hard to notice and can turn out badly.

I had a fucked up childhood myself,so fucked up that my personallity at a time ceased to be shown on the outside and that another took over as a sort of escapism for survival so i can mildly understand what stress and our mind are capable of and that there are just so many ways to do fucked up shit without the neccesarity of rhetoric to drive us that far.

I can not stop thinking about the guy that welcomed him to the mosque only to get shot,that is courage and showing of a kind/great heart and it would be good that people did unite over his sacrifice instead of using the incident for their agenda like all sides are to blame of currently.



o_O.Q on 17 March 2019
Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:

atheists constantly claim that christianity needs to be destroyed for society to progress forwards

are you ready to put the blame of recent church shootings on to the atheist community?

If you could find me a shooter that shot up a church because they wanted to dismantle the institution of christianity I'm happy to consider the ramifications of such rhetoric. I think you know there's a much more direct line between people that shoot muslims and the fear mongering that occurs about them than atheists saying that the institutions of religion should be destroyed and people shooting church goers. If you can make that connection though I'm happy to consider it. 

This isn't about blame, it's about trying to get to the root cause of a problem rather than letting things end with "wow what a crazy bastard, guess we can't do anything about it". Whether that's gun control, mental health, or trying to curb the overly fearful rhetoric around the group that he shot up.

"If you could find me a shooter that shot up a church because they wanted to dismantle the institution of christianity "

that's not how this works, you made the argument that hostile rhetoric towards a group of people is enough to condemn the origin of that rhetoric if violence occurs towards that group of people

"I think my overall issue is that I believe there's a connection between people who fear monger about muslims and crazy people that shoot them."

church shootings as far as i know are typically perpetrated by atheists, off the top of my head dylan roof was an atheist

https://en-gb.facebook.com/FFAF.International/posts/the-militant-atheist-dylan-roof-has-been-sentenced-to-death-for-his-crime-of-ent/1364203600290345/

and obviously my first reaction is are you consistent?

 

"I think you know there's a much more direct line between people that shoot muslims and the fear mongering that occurs about them than atheists saying that the institutions of religion should be destroyed and people shooting church goers."

can you elaborate on that for me? giving your reasoning (which i disagree with) it seems to be the same thing to me

 

"This isn't about blame, it's about trying to get to the root cause of a problem"

first off i'd like to point out that i don't have a problem with any group of people myself including muslims once they do not try to control other groups of people

the root of the problem is fear over the demographics of the country changing which obviously candace owens commented on

but its a fact that the demographics of the country are changing and people are going to deal with that fact in different ways

some won't have a problem with it and may even embrace it, but other people like the atheists with christianity are fearful of the influence people with other ways of life may have on their lives

i've asked someone else this question and now i'll ask you, how would you feel if the influence of christianity was expanding rapidly?



adidas198 on 17 March 2019
o_O.Q said:
Torillian said:

I think my overall issue is that I believe there's a connection between people who fear monger about muslims and crazy people that shoot them. So I can't look at someone saying "If France doesn't get their shit together they'll be majority muslim" as totally unrelated to some crazy dickhead killing a bunch of muslims. It's similar to how I think there's a connection between someone calling an abortion doctor "baby killer" over and over again and some crazy asshole killing said doctor. I highly doubt that Candice's brief foray into this particular brand of conservative douchebaggery has had an affect on anyone really, but the general sentiment she's espousing, that muslims are coming to take over all the nice white European countries that need to protect their culture, is definitely to blame for what this dickhead did. 

atheists constantly claim that christianity needs to be destroyed for society to progress forwards

are you ready to put the blame of recent church shootings on to the atheist community?

Atheists are in the mindset that the world would be better of if religions are phased out rather than "destroyed". It's clear, however, that the recent church shootings weren't done by atheists but by white supremacists. 



Torillian on 17 March 2019
o_O.Q said:
Torillian said:

If you could find me a shooter that shot up a church because they wanted to dismantle the institution of christianity I'm happy to consider the ramifications of such rhetoric. I think you know there's a much more direct line between people that shoot muslims and the fear mongering that occurs about them than atheists saying that the institutions of religion should be destroyed and people shooting church goers. If you can make that connection though I'm happy to consider it. 

This isn't about blame, it's about trying to get to the root cause of a problem rather than letting things end with "wow what a crazy bastard, guess we can't do anything about it". Whether that's gun control, mental health, or trying to curb the overly fearful rhetoric around the group that he shot up.

"If you could find me a shooter that shot up a church because they wanted to dismantle the institution of christianity "

that's not how this works, you made the argument that hostile rhetoric towards a group of people is enough to condemn the origin of that rhetoric if violence occurs towards that group of people

"I think my overall issue is that I believe there's a connection between people who fear monger about muslims and crazy people that shoot them."

church shootings as far as i know are typically perpetrated by atheists, off the top of my head dylan roof was an atheist

https://en-gb.facebook.com/FFAF.International/posts/the-militant-atheist-dylan-roof-has-been-sentenced-to-death-for-his-crime-of-ent/1364203600290345/

and obviously my first reaction is are you consistent?

 

"I think you know there's a much more direct line between people that shoot muslims and the fear mongering that occurs about them than atheists saying that the institutions of religion should be destroyed and people shooting church goers."

can you elaborate on that for me? giving your reasoning (which i disagree with) it seems to be the same thing to me

 

"This isn't about blame, it's about trying to get to the root cause of a problem"

first off i'd like to point out that i don't have a problem with any group of people myself including muslims once they do not try to control other groups of people

the root of the problem is fear over the demographics of the country changing which obviously candace owens commented on

but its a fact that the demographics of the country are changing and people are going to deal with that fact in different ways

some won't have a problem with it and may even embrace it, but other people like the atheists with christianity are fearful of the influence people with other ways of life may have on their lives

i've asked someone else this question and now i'll ask you, how would you feel if the influence of christianity was expanding rapidly?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/13/universal/document-Dylann-Roof-manifesto.html

there's a link to Dylann Roof's manifesto. Let me know when you find "I listened to youtube antitheists and decided Christianity needed to be destroyed". Based on my reading the reason this guy shot up a black church is not because of the church part. 

Now on the other hand, here's the manifesto of the New Zealand shooter:

https://observer.news/featured/the-manifesto-of-brenton-tarrant-a-right-wing-terrorist-on-a-crusade/

It's called "the great replacement". Bonus points if you can guess what that's about without reading it. 

So there you go, find me a manifesto of a church shooter talking about how he wants to decrease the political influence of christianity and I'll agree with your link Before that, it's just you saying "they're an atheist so that's why they shot up a church". I'm not saying that this guy is conservative so conservative ideas are why he shot muslims. I'm saying that his writings show a clear link between a fear of muslims (something quite often perpetuated by those on the right) and the violence he enacted. 

 

On the question of christianity: I already live in a country where christianity influences far too much of politics. It's not about christianity as a general concept but how it's applied. If there are reasons to be concerned about how the influence of islam is affecting western countries I'm happy to hear it out, but just generally talking about how there's more influence and that's scary doesn't help anyone.  



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