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Forums - Politics Discussion - IGN takes issue with white male lead in Days Gone.

sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

a) "Are you saying "black minstrel character are racist"

well yes obviously

 

b)" And just so we are clear, fictional characters aren't real."

were your statements directed at the creator's of the characters or the characters themselves? 

i mean obviously i'd naturally assume that it was at the creators but i could only interpret this to be an implication of the latter so maybe you can clarify

c) "As a side note, criticizing tired stereotypes is not "attacking" anyone"

if the character in this game was asian no one would give a fuck, which means that simply a change to his race would make him acceptable

how is that not racist?


d) "You can argue that it should not (or that it doesn't in you personally), but you cannot argue that it does not. As previously stated, that would be an argument from ignorance, not from reality."

and the solution to that is what exactly?

increase the focus on race? or decrease it? personally i'd think the former would be the way but maybe i'm missing something

the only end result i can envision for harping about race constantly is to further the divide between people in terms of race

a) See below.

b) When I was talking about "colorblindness" I was criticizing the arguments brought by certain posters here. When speaking about stereotypes, I was primarily speaking about the characters in the abstract but you could draw from that a criticism of the author now that you mention it (however "criticism" in not equivalent to "attack"). That being said, your previous comment "f you(not you specifically) continue using race to attack one group of people what do you think they'll do" still doesn't apply, because no one (or no "group") is being attacked by race...

c) Alternately, if the black minstrel character wasn't black, no one would give a fuck.

Like, yeah, this has already been addressed. Race is part of the stereotype. If you change the stereotype, it isn't the stereotype anymore.

d) The solution is this: Write better characters.

Thats it. If your character is a lame stereotype, it is going to be called out for being a lame stereotype, and rightly so. Don't make all your black characters thugs, all your asian characters math geeks, and all your Indian characters taxi drivers or convenience store owners. Just write better characters. This isn't complicated and it has nothing to do with "focus on race" (whatever that means).

"Alternately, if the black minstrel character"

so... you are conceding that race is central here... which means you have contradicted yourself

 

"The solution is this: Write better characters."

the game isn't out yet... how do you know about its writing?

it automatically has to have bad writing because the character is white?

do you have a problem with white people or something?

 

"If your character is a lame stereotype"(because they are a white man)... you forgot this part in your statement

 

"Don't make all your black characters thugs, all your asian characters math geeks, and all your Indian characters taxi drivers"

in what universe is that the case? my character in destiny is a black woman, i played a black space cowboy in starhawk while i still had a ps3, in infamous 2 the scientist who died advising cole mcgrath was a black man etc etc etc right off the top of my head

this claim holds less water than a cheese grater



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SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

lol you're calling skin color a stereotype?

Did you miss the rest of the stereotype we are discussing?  There is male and there is gruff.  It's the whole package.  Not the individual pieces.

Kerotan said:

Maybe he disagrees with what he hears? 

No, he's completely stopped listening.  The stereotype...cliche or trope here, has 3 components.  Race, sex, and voice (or demeanor).  Combined, not individually, but combined, they are considered an overused character type.  o_O.Q is trying to focus solely on one element.  One facet by itself is irrelevant and is not an issue at all.  It's when all 3 are combined in to a character that it gets used too much and is becoming boring.

o_O.Q said:

look i understand his perspective and its not coherent you cannot reduce the perceived emphasis on race by concentrating on race even more, that's just illogical

you can't in one instance claim its wrong to use race as a weapon to disenfranchise a particular group of people then turn around and use it yourself as a weapon

for one thing its hypocritical but most importantly all you are going to achieve is to encourage the other side to be resentful and vengeful

Actually, you are the one reducing the issue and concentrating on race.  We are going in the opposite direction.  It's a combination of many things, not race by itself.

You are so focused on just race that you can't see the bigger discussion.  Or you do understand it but you just want to stir things up....which I'm starting to believe is the case completely. In fact...that's my call now.  You can't be so dense as to not understand that the issue is the combined character type so I believe you are only in this discussion to stir the pot.  Otherwise. the corollary means....

ok i'll reiterate once more, if this guy was asian no one would care... why is that?



o_O.Q said:

"Alternately, if the black minstrel character"

so... you are conceding that race is central here... which means you have contradicted yourself

 

"The solution is this: Write better characters."

the game isn't out yet... how do you know about its writing?

it automatically has to have bad writing because the character is white?

do you have a problem with white people or something?

 

"If your character is a lame stereotype"(because they are a white man)... you forgot this part in your statement

 

"Don't make all your black characters thugs, all your asian characters math geeks, and all your Indian characters taxi drivers"

in what universe is that the case? my character in destiny is a black woman, i played a black space cowboy in starhawk while i still had a ps3, in infamous 2 the scientist who died advising cole mcgrath was a black man etc etc etc right off the top of my head

this claim holds less water than a cheese grater

I'm trying to be polite here, which is quite hard to do when you keep chiding in with your ridiculously stupid "You just hate white people" comments. You clearly are just trying to push buttons or push a narrative, and I will no longer be party to that. I've explained my point several times. If you wish to engage with me further, actually read my posts and try again. Good day.



SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

ok i'll reiterate once more, if this guy was asian no one would care... why is that?

I actually cannot believe that at this point it must be elaborated upon further.  There are literally dozens of posts explaining this already.

Let's use some quantification, shall we?

How many games in the US have a gruff, Asian male protagonist?  Maybe a few.
How many games in the US have a gruff, white male protagonist?  Maybe a few thousand.

So nobody is saying white = bad. Or male = bad.  Or gruff = bad. Or protagonist = bad.

What we are saying is that the combination of all of those traits (AND IT MUST BE ALL OF THOSE TRAITS) into a single character it is getting stale, old, boring, overused.  It could be an over use of pink, short tailed, wisecracking tigers.   If they use that character combination too many times, it would get old and boring.

 

Further...and to nix this illogical racist crap to the curb once and for all....if it were racist, they never would have liked playing as a gruff, white male antagonist...or any white character AT ALL.  This isn't about not liking to play as a gruff, white male antagonist ever...but that they are getting tired of doing it repeatedly. 

I liked white rice a lot several years ago but started getting tired of it.  Tried brown rice.  I like that now.  Doesn't that mean I am racist against white rice?  Guess what?  I might get tired of brown rice soon and will either go back to white rice or may try yellow rice for a while.  It's. The. Repetition. Of. The. Same. Thing. Over. And. Over. And. Over. Again.

 

Now if you do not get it after that, we're done and I will never engage another discussion with you again.  You will go on my ignore list.  And if I see someone quote you, I will inform them of this thread and your intention of trolling for the sake of wasting their time such that they may engage in dialog with someone else that values their time and opinions.

am i to take this as a concession that we agree that if he was asian there wouldn't be a problem?

why can't you just answer the question? 

 

"It's. The. Repetition. Of. The. Same. Thing. Over. And. Over. And. Over. Again."

the gameplay of this game involves shooting zombies... something that's been done a thousand times and actually matters when playing the game and not the race of the character... why aren't you focusing on that?



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

"Alternately, if the black minstrel character"

so... you are conceding that race is central here... which means you have contradicted yourself

 

"The solution is this: Write better characters."

the game isn't out yet... how do you know about its writing?

it automatically has to have bad writing because the character is white?

do you have a problem with white people or something?

 

"If your character is a lame stereotype"(because they are a white man)... you forgot this part in your statement

 

"Don't make all your black characters thugs, all your asian characters math geeks, and all your Indian characters taxi drivers"

in what universe is that the case? my character in destiny is a black woman, i played a black space cowboy in starhawk while i still had a ps3, in infamous 2 the scientist who died advising cole mcgrath was a black man etc etc etc right off the top of my head

this claim holds less water than a cheese grater

I'm trying to be polite here, which is quite hard to do when you keep chiding in with your ridiculously stupid "You just hate white people" comments. You clearly are just trying to push buttons or push a narrative, and I will no longer be party to that. I've explained my point several times. If you wish to engage with me further, actually read my posts and try again. Good day.

i have never said that you hate white people, i asked if you have a problem with white people because you automatically jumped to the conclusion that the writing of this game must be bad even though its not out yet

 

"You clearly are just trying to push buttons or push a narrative"

oh and you're not when you claim a game that isn't even out yet has bad writing

 

"If you wish to engage with me further, actually read my posts"

was this not your post: "The solution is this: Write better characters."

i'll ask once more, how do you know the game has bad writing?

would you opinion be different if the character was asian?



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the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

to reiterate if this guy was asian no one would have a problem... do you agree with that?

Try this:

To reiterate if this guy wasn't gruff no one would have a problem... do you agree with that?  

its a post apocalyptic setting... are you expecting runway models or something?



o_O.Q said:

i have never said that you hate white people, i asked if you have a problem with white people because you automatically jumped to the conclusion that the writing of this game must be bad even though its not out yet

 

"You clearly are just trying to push buttons or push a narrative"

oh and you're not when you claim a game that isn't even out yet has bad writing

 

"If you wish to engage with me further, actually read my posts"

was this not your post: "The solution is this: Write better characters."

i'll ask once more, how do you know the game has bad writing?

would you opinion be different if the character was asian?

I never stated that Days Gone has poor writing. In fact, the article in question explicitly states that the topic at hand was not a problem because the character is well written. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth and start actually reading my posts (the whole posts, not just one sentence that you think you can use against me if you take it far enough out of context).



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

i have never said that you hate white people, i asked if you have a problem with white people because you automatically jumped to the conclusion that the writing of this game must be bad even though its not out yet

 

"You clearly are just trying to push buttons or push a narrative"

oh and you're not when you claim a game that isn't even out yet has bad writing

 

"If you wish to engage with me further, actually read my posts"

was this not your post: "The solution is this: Write better characters."

i'll ask once more, how do you know the game has bad writing?

would you opinion be different if the character was asian?

I never stated that Days Gone has poor writing. In fact, the article in question explicitly states that the topic at hand was not a problem because the character is well written. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth and start actually reading my posts (the whole posts, not just one sentence that you think you can use against me if you take it far enough out of context).

"I never stated that Days Gone has poor writing. In fact, the article in question explicitly states that the topic at hand was not a problem because the character is well written."

huh? did you not state they need to write better characters in the context of the main character from days gone?

 

would you have had issues with the character had he been asian? could you answer that please?




o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

I never stated that Days Gone has poor writing. In fact, the article in question explicitly states that the topic at hand was not a problem because the character is well written. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth and start actually reading my posts (the whole posts, not just one sentence that you think you can use against me if you take it far enough out of context).

"I never stated that Days Gone has poor writing. In fact, the article in question explicitly states that the topic at hand was not a problem because the character is well written."

huh? did you not state they need to write better characters in the context of the main character from days gone?

 

would you have had issues with the character had he been asian? could you answer that please?


I stated that the way to fix issues with generic characters is with better writing. Please stop making assumptions.

Would you have had issues with the happy-go-lucky idiot character had he been white and not black? Could you answer that please?



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

"I never stated that Days Gone has poor writing. In fact, the article in question explicitly states that the topic at hand was not a problem because the character is well written."

huh? did you not state they need to write better characters in the context of the main character from days gone?

 

would you have had issues with the character had he been asian? could you answer that please?


I stated that the way to fix issues with generic characters is with better writing. Please stop making assumptions.

Would you have had issues with the happy-go-lucky idiot character had he been white and not black? Could you answer that please?

"Please stop making assumptions."

i quoted you directly you stated explicitly that the writing of the characters was bad and isn't it interesting that no one can answer to whether the problem would be alleviated by just changing the character's race to asian?