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Forums - Politics Discussion - Pittsburg Shooting Killed 11 People. Gun control?

 

What should be done about guns in the US?

Nothing 9 13.43%
 
Strict background checks 35 52.24%
 
Ban guns 18 26.87%
 
other- comment down below. 5 7.46%
 
Total:67
SuaveSocialist said:

1: Sounds like an excuse to make after an effort is made to replicate a system proven to be successful (provided it somehow fails), though certainly not an argument to continue sitting around with your thumb up your ass after decades (centuries?) with your thumb up your ass.

2: Canada is more successful than West Korea...despite being the second largest country, not an island, and sharing the largest undefended border with West Korea.

3: I don’t recall ever discussing that, but you are certainly free to quote me on it if I did.  Really sounds like you’re thinking of somebody else, though.

4: Ah, classic. Professing disinterest in making conversation immediately after jumping into someone’s conversation. Never gets old.  Oh, well.  Bye!

1. No it's a reality of American society. Police would have to go door-to-door for years, intrude in people's habitats, to maybe possibly eliminate >350 million weapons. What would the costs to human life, liberty, and security be from such an endeavor? No other country had to do this. Gun ownership rates were much lower in Britain and Australia, France (and other continental European countries) are not able to contain their black market, and Japan has been restricting gun ownership since the 16th century. 

2. Most Canadians live in large cities and suburbs at their border. Canadians have universal healthcare. Canadians are wealthier than Americans in the south. Canadians don't have a history of slavery. Yet still, Canada has a higher murder rate than most European countries, and many more guns. Canadians haven't banned guns. 

3. Nope, we've had this discussion about a year ago on this website. 

4. You quoted me, buddy. 



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SpokenTruth said:

I see 3 main discussions going on so I'll try to hit all 3.

 

A. Domestic terrorism is a far larger problem in this country than foreign terrorism yet our national focus and budget is clearly prioritized to the latter. 

B. The guy shot 4 cops and gets taken alive.  My first thought....I bet he's white.

C. Gun control.  I have a list of ideas that will help if, IF, used all together. Individually they won't do much.  Obviously each of these are only a summarization for simplicity purposes. 

1. National registry and licensing for all guns and gun owners.
2. Register all gun and ammo sales.
3. Private sales must be notarized and registered.
4. Must pass psych evaluation and safety training every 3 years.
5. Owners must carry Gun Owners Insurance.
6. Cannot own more than 4 guns without a "collectors" license.
7. If you have kids under 18 living in the house, guns must be locked and/or unloaded.
8. National background check prior to any gun or ammo purchase.
9. Criminal history negates license.
10. Illegal gun/ammo sale/ownership results in felony charges with harsh consequences.
11. Circumvention of these results in felony charges with harsh consequences.

What are your thoughts on the policy proposed here?

https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-good-legal-compromise-between-2nd-Amendment-supporters-and-anti-firearms-supporters-in-the-US-to-help-prevent-future-school-shootings/answer/Yishan-Wong

 

It is probably the best compromise I have seen, and would probably make a real difference.

 

It is similar to the laws found in The Czech Republic.

 



SpokenTruth said:

It's not bad but I find it lacking in certain areas.  This doesn't address private sales or registration but the biggest flaw is tier 1.  No wait, buy now, by anyone.

Restricting private sales (without giving free access to the background check system) and require registration of each user is just a non-starter politically.

Most gun-rights advocates seem to support universal background checks so long as they can access the background check system at home with no cost to themselves rather than have to go through an FFL dealer.

 

Registration is politically unfeasible as it is seen as a precursor to confiscation, and has very little benefits other than that. Most registration efforts in U.S states and even Canada have failed to get even 10-20% of thd estimated guns registered. The permit system tells us the lower limit of gun owners though.

 

The intention behind the linked proposal is to reduce the lethality of shootings and mass shootings, by restricting higher calibers and more powerful guns (rather than merely scary looking ones) to more human contact. But being able to buy a gun to protect against wildlife or for self-protection in rural areas is very important. That is why Tier 1 is unrestricted. 



SpokenTruth said:

But it's not so important that waiting a few days for a background check and registration should be removed.

And I'm tired of the idea of politically unfeasible but that's precisely why none of this will ever happen.  Confiscation. also, will never happen regardless of what the far right fears. The Constitution still exists.

Background checks don't take a few days though. They take a few minutes to hours.

The whole point about compromise is that there are some things that are important to one party but other things which can be horse-traded on. That is how parliamentary reprsentative politics works. 

What is the big benefit of registration that it is worth killing the other, more effective reform for it?

And it is not just the far right that is skeptical of registration. The guy who posted that proposal says he is a "liberal gun owner" and I am on the far-left, a proudhonian socialist. 



SpokenTruth said:
sc94597 said:

Background checks don't take a few days though. They take a few minutes to hours.

The whole point about compromise is that there are some things that are important to one party but other things which can be horse-traded on. That is how parliamentary reprsentative politics works. 

What is the big benefit of registration that it is worth killing the other, more effective reform for it?

And it is not just the far right that is skeptical of registration. The guy who posted that proposal says he is a "liberal gun owner" and I am on the far-left, a proudhonian socialist. 

Sorry, I'm used to having a 3 day waiting period to act as a cooling off buffer to reduce heat of the moment type purchases. 

As for compromise....registration and background checks ARE part of the compromise.  The lack of an outright ban is why registration and backgrounds checks are a compromise.

Are you skeptical of registration as a precursor to confiscation?

What percentage of murders by people who bought guns in the "heat of the moment?" I am not convinced this is an extant problem which must be resolved.

Compromise is not, "we will do only a little bit of what you don't want." Compromise is an exchange, "I give you a policy reform you want and in exchange you reform something I want.We won't touch those things which we chose not to budge on."

I am less skeptical of registration as a means of confiscation and see it more as a means of criminalization of the otherwise  peaceful, because those proposing it know very well that the overwhelming majority refuse to abide by the registration requirement. It is an onerous requirement with no purpose other than to create a misdemeanor or felon who wouldn't otherwise exist as a criminal.



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sc94597 said:
SuaveSocialist said:

1: Sounds like an excuse to make after an effort is made to replicate a system proven to be successful (provided it somehow fails), though certainly not an argument to continue sitting around with your thumb up your ass after decades (centuries?) with your thumb up your ass.

2: Canada is more successful than West Korea...despite being the second largest country, not an island, and sharing the largest undefended border with West Korea.

3: I don’t recall ever discussing that, but you are certainly free to quote me on it if I did.  Really sounds like you’re thinking of somebody else, though.

4: Ah, classic. Professing disinterest in making conversation immediately after jumping into someone’s conversation. Never gets old.  Oh, well.  Bye!

1. Police would have to go door-to-door for years

2. Canada has a higher murder rate than most European countries, and many more guns. Canadians haven't banned guns. 

3. Nope, we've had this discussion about a year ago on this website. 

4. You quoted me, buddy. 

1. Do tell us all about Canada’s history of police going “door to door” every time they passed gun control measures.  I am certain it will be a very, very quick history lesson, one that reinforces how weak an excuse you had.

2. So you acknowledge that Canada is more successful than West Korea without having to ban guns. Awesome.

3. And yet I am still not seeing any evidence of that. Not even a quote.  What are the odds?

4.  And I’m not seeing a word uttered on all that silliness about disarmament.  You brought that up, only to profess no interest in talking about it.  Is there anything else that I didn’t bring up that you don’t want to talk about?  Now’s your chance to talk about it.



SuaveSocialist said:
sc94597 said:

1. Police would have to go door-to-door for years

2. Canada has a higher murder rate than most European countries, and many more guns. Canadians haven't banned guns. 

3. Nope, we've had this discussion about a year ago on this website. 

4. You quoted me, buddy. 

1. Do tell us all about Canada’s history of police going “door to door” every time they passed gun control measures.  I am certain it will be a very, very quick history lesson, one that reinforces how weak an excuse you had.

2. So you acknowledge that Canada is more successful than West Korea without having to ban guns. Awesome.

3. And yet I am still not seeing any evidence of that. Not even a quote.  What are the odds?

4.  And I’m not seeing a word uttered on all that silliness about disarmament.  You brought that up, only to profess no interest in talking about it.  Is there anything else that I didn’t bring up that you don’t want to talk about?  Now’s your chance to talk about it.

1. & 2. You are using a tactic of mixing up responses to general claims you made, such as "other countries" and specific ones such as "Canada." Canada has not been able to reduce gun crime in Canada at a faster rate  than the U.S has in the U.S. The rate of homicides in the U.S has always been greater than in Canada, because of particular social problems which exist in the U S which don't exist in Canada, such as: the legacy of slavery, greater socio-economic inequality, and greater poverty. For any particular gun control law Canada has incorporated there is no evidence that it has reduced the already comparatively low Canadian crime rate.

And there is a much larger problem for the U.S (three times as many guns per capita) and a larger population living in more habitable area.

 

3. I am not able to spend the time to use VGChartz's search feature right now but I will look for the thread later and get back to ya. It is useful to do so, because I don't feel like having this conversation again with you. We agreed to disagree the last time after pages of quotes.

 

4. No I am interested in talking about these things. Just not with you. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Been there; done that. 



I believe they should ban carry on laws. If you own a gun, keep it in your house under lock and key. Throw anyone carrying guns in jail. Guns only purpose should be to keep the government in check not for pleasure or to run around like a cowboy looking for people to shoot. Yes criminals will still carry them, but I am more scared of random nutjobs who think themselves cowboys and are looking for any excuse to use their expensive handgun in any confrontation. It could also slow down all this gun crazy culture.



gamerguy101 said:
If you know about history and keeping countries free. Never ban guns. That is the short term impulse reaction. You don't ban clothes cleaner because a bunch of idiots wana eat tide pods or ban bleach because people drink it. You don't ban cars because idiots run people over/drive drunk/ high. We could endlessly debate if there should be more strict laws of some kind and Im for that as long as its not to intrusive. But again ...never ban...guns.

People that are law abiding and good only get hurt when you ban guns because now they can't protect themselves against any form of tyranny. And they would be to afraid of acquiring them illegally because of the consequences because you know they want to do better for themselves and have families to raise/protect them going to jail or getting a hefty fine would be the end. Criminals however and people that don't care about life will do not care about ramifications at all or much less than a law abiding person. Bad people/criminals GET THE GUNS NO MATTER WHAT only good people will be afraid to acquire them illegally, ala what happened in France and other places not to long ago. Or just go about it in another way to hurt others.

Iv never touched a gun or even been around one. But I know their significance to keeping countries truly free in the long run. Remember free countries can't be turned over night it's a slow incremental process for tyranny to take over.

Which ironically is slowly happening in the US. You can;t stop tyranny with your little lead throwers my man. They have tanks and rockets and aircrafts. The only thing to stop tyranny is the voice of the people, people don't need guns to do it, only a will and heart of steel. Just zoom out and look at what's happening in the US and tell me it's not going towards tyranny, slowly but surely. Drumpf is not the worst of it trust me. You will continue to get worse and worse leaders and both parties are corrupt so only the people have the power to stop this either by a new party or radically getting into and changing these parties from within



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

As I am sure most of you already know. The killer posted that he was incited by the Soro's funded Migrant caravan... which of course was a Trump lie. I don't know what more else you need to know to see that this man is dangerous... In his position, he has to understand that unstable people may be out there listening to him and believing his lies. Then you hear that one of his victims was a 97 year old Holocaust survivor and then you get this sick feeling in your stomach. We, the silent majority are done with his machinations and fear mongering. Enough is enough. You can worship the ground Trump walks on but you don't get to tell us we have to stand here and take it. Enough!