sundin13 said:
DonFerrari said:
Sorry man, but romania, pakistan, nigeria, japan, argentina, etc aren't american culture. And Yes there are always people demanding changes in American Culture to be more inclusive. And no didn't say America is white and white is America, even more when I said to you that "white" is not even a thing, as much as black or asian. It is a racist way of denying all differences in culture and ethinicity and reduce it to skin color.
But I see that you accepted that whitewashing is something people complain and are met with appraisal, but for some reason when it is the opposite it is also good because it's progressive, it is a double standard BS to defend anything you want and deem it good.
Funny you mention of the NY Man, because when we see USA and all the ghettos and resistance to adapt to local culture, keeping the culture from the country they are from is exactly what keeps the notion that they aren't America.
India being an ex part of the British Empire I would bet with you they have a lot of white folks that talk the local language. And again as I said, even if they don't speak they can be dubbed.
No Witcher is from where it is, being shooted by Netflix doesn't make it an American Cultura product, much as BJJ being used by and American fighter doesn't make it not Brazilian.
Part 2:
Because unless they can explain that they have a different way of heritage than DNA, and how you transfer a lot of information through heritage, but skin color is something totally irrelevant that no one even notice and there are a lot of black people (or any other non pale white) son or daughter of pale white people you will just making the "well she could be black because of reasons, DNA doesn't exist". Suspension of disbelief, fictional freedom and all else needs to at least pass the coherence and verosimilitude aspect to be acceptable to the viewer.
Part 3:
Guess you should read more of his posts.
The heritage of the char is of paramount importance to the book, and the relatives are royalty of white skinned people so she being non-white would be a break on what is in the core of the story.
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Part 1:
You don't really seem to have understood what I said. Japan isn't American culture, but what about a Third Generation Japanese American, who speaks no Japanese, and has never been to Japan and considers himself a Wisconsin-er through and through? When I say "hey, how about you give this American guy some roles" and you respond with "Stop trying to interject foreign culture into American cultural products", there is a disconnect there. That man is as American as you or I.
" It is a racist way of denying all differences in culture and ethinicity and reduce it to skin color."
Thats kind of my point. You can't just point to a person with dark skin and say "They are culturally African, not American" because that is denying their experience and reducing it down to skin color.
"I see that you accepted that whitewashing is something people complain and are met with appraisal, but for some reason when it is the opposite it is also good because it's progressive, it is a double standard BS to defend anything you want and deem it good."
I've made my perspective on "whitewashing" clear from the start. I don't care if you change a characters race, no matter how it is changed (unless their specific race is fundamentally important within the narrative). What I do care about is when there is an underserved population of actors who are being discriminated against. No matter what you say about one or two roles here or there, you cannot make the argument that white actors are underserved in American cinema. The same can't be said about many other minority groups.
Part 2:
Again, I don't believe you understand what I am saying. There is no reason to bring up DNA here. I am not arguing that she should be a black daughter of white parents. Read my posts again if you don't get it.
Part 3:
Yeah, but why? Why do they have to be white skinned?
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Part 1, yes I get what you are saying, what you don't get is that first identity policies is more an issue than a problem solving, second as much as there are 3rd gen japanese in USA who speak english there are also 3rd gen european in Japan who would talk Japanese. And also that no one have a right for a role or quota. Also if you are making a current story sure there are space for most folks who migrated there. Still if you are talking a story about a period in time that only England migrants had anything to do with the story but then you decide to make the queen of England black on a USA Independence story then you are taking silly liberties just to be inclusive "why can't this 10th gen african american, who is american through and through be the queen of England?".
There is no push for more roles for indian, japanese, russian, arabic or european descendents people in Brazil to have space on the shows (and we do have a good bunch of migrants over here), it is usually the "give black people voice".
In USA it is a little more broad, but we won't see similar things in India or Japan even if there are plenty of white folks over there who can act. There may be an actor or another who get a role, but I seriously doubt there are major groups pushing and demanding that more roles are given to these people over there. As much as 3rd wave feminists love to preach about all the perceived inequality in USA complain about christian and patriarch at the same time demanding recognition to islan even if the countries where that is majoritary woman and gay are threaded much worse than USA.
I'm pretty sure I can name more black or indian actors in Holywood than you would be able to name white actors in India, Japan or let's say Africa.
Part 2:
So you know that her heritage is important and that everyone in that ethnicity of the book is white and then your reasoning for her to not be white is?
Part 3:
If you so much wish to change everyone to black on her clan that would at least keep coherence (even if that would hurt the original setting, but at least would make some sense) otherwise it hurts the story and that is what people are complaining, but then come people to say that is racism.
danasider said:
| DonFerrari said:
Guess you should read more of his posts.
The heritage of the char is of paramount importance to the book, and the relatives are royalty of white skinned people so she being non-white would be a break on what is in the core of the story.
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Or you can quote the correct post in which he/she is saying what you are accusing him of, because it's unclear for others, and this is a public forum where we're all having a discussion. What you quoted said no such thing.
And I get your point about heritage of character being important. I don't necessarily agree (I believe the significance is contextual), but I am not saying you are wrong. Just that for some people it would matter and for others it wouldn't. This issue is subjective and there's no right or wrong here.
You saying he's/she's accusing you of being racist after quoting him is plain false, however.
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I'll say again go read all his judgemental posts.
And please explain to me how a story with core on royalty and heritage makes heritage not important?
Runa216 said:
DonFerrari said:
Sorry man, but romania, pakistan, nigeria, japan, argentina, etc aren't american culture. And Yes there are always people demanding changes in American Culture to be more inclusive. And no didn't say America is white and white is America, even more when I said to you that "white" is not even a thing, as much as black or asian. It is a racist way of denying all differences in culture and ethinicity and reduce it to skin color.
But I see that you accepted that whitewashing is something people complain and are met with appraisal, but for some reason when it is the opposite it is also good because it's progressive, it is a double standard BS to defend anything you want and deem it good.
Funny you mention of the NY Man, because when we see USA and all the ghettos and resistance to adapt to local culture, keeping the culture from the country they are from is exactly what keeps the notion that they aren't America.
India being an ex part of the British Empire I would bet with you they have a lot of white folks that talk the local language. And again as I said, even if they don't speak they can be dubbed.
No Witcher is from where it is, being shooted by Netflix doesn't make it an American Cultura product, much as BJJ being used by and American fighter doesn't make it not Brazilian.
Because unless they can explain that they have a different way of heritage than DNA, and how you transfer a lot of information through heritage, but skin color is something totally irrelevant that no one even notice and there are a lot of black people (or any other non pale white) son or daughter of pale white people you will just making the "well she could be black because of reasons, DNA doesn't exist". Suspension of disbelief, fictional freedom and all else needs to at least pass the coherence and verosimilitude aspect to be acceptable to the viewer.
Guess you should read more of his posts.
The heritage of the char is of paramount importance to the book, and the relatives are royalty of white skinned people so she being non-white would be a break on what is in the core of the story.
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The problem with this is that yes, Ciri's heritage is important. But it's not earth that this takes place on, so why can't that heritage be hispanic or middle-eastern or asian? Why can't her people be a different color while still maintaining the 'we're not the same as you' themes and elements of the story. There's no reason she has to be white, that's not an important theme of the book because in the book/games that isn't what's important about her.
I'm honestly kinda shocked I still need to go through this with people.
The very fact that this is a FANTASY means that the color of the skin is almost universally less important than the allegories that come from it. The fact that this FANTASY world that was MADE UP BY THE AUTHOR is inspired by real world ancient europe is irrelevant, because as an adaptation some of those details can be tweaked without sacrificing the tone/themes/plot/character. You can do the exact same thing by portraying her as asian as you could by portraying her as white, it's just a matter of how you do it.
And I repeat: Until we know and understand why these choices were made, it just sounds like a whole lot of insecure people bleating on about the indignity of a once-white character being portrayed as non-white.
Suck it up. It's not the end of the world. Quit whining about NOTHING. First world problems, people.
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If you have all her people being white and her being black unless you want to take time to explain how heritage carries over there (because then you are heir to several traits of your family but not their appearance) then you have a problem. You may tell the story anywhere from the world you want, the rules of physic are still there even if a little distorted, if you don't explain how you changed biology (I'll inform you that some inter-species breading is possible, and that possibly for these type of stories all humanoids would carry enough closeness to interbread) then people will just see a black girl daugther of white folks, living in a white populated country and just think what the hell. That is the point about verosimilitude, even if it's fiction it must be believable inside the internal rules of the story. And when you have to change a lot of things to accommodate an arbitrary decision you impact the lore, and that is what people are complaining and you resisting and name calling.
Sure he could have tweaked those inspirational elements, but he didn't, he say in the book she is white, he also say her heritage and that those folks and peasants are white. Shall we also remember that the royalty of the people hold similarities in ethnicity to their people? And there are ethnicity in Witcher 3 even if you try to deny, clan thinking is very much a thing in it.
But give us one story reason (that makes sense in the book, not in RL politics and pleasing groups) that justify they demanding any non-white. As people said if they just wanted to have more easily identifiable clans and countries they would determine what ethnicity they would like, not the only one they don't.
