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Forums - Gaming Discussion - What exactly do you consider to be "SJW agenda" in games?

 

Does the inclusion of women in BFV bother you?

Yes 15 22.06%
 
No 53 77.94%
 
Total:68
shikamaru317 said:

Things I consider to be part of the SJW agenda

-Diversity that feels forced. BFV is a prime example of this category, as it features women fighting in combat roles for armies that specifically forbade women from serving in combat roles. Another hypothetical example would be a game set in the rural US that has as many black, hispanic, Asian, native American, etc. characters as white characters. In most rural areas in the US whites make up at least 70% of the total population according to census data (my own county, which is rural, is 95% white as of the 2010 census, while the largest city in my county is 85% white), having a ton of minority characters in such a game would be an example of forced diversity. Another example would be an RPG with a party that covers just about every race just to check-off the diversity box. 

-Anti-religious themes, particularly anti-Christian themes. SJW's can't stand Christians because the Bible speaks against a number of causes that they support, such as abortion and the LGBT movement, and many SJW's also have a problem with other religions for the same reason. As a result, some SJW developers will inject anti-religious themes into their games.

-Forced LGBT romance scenes featuring playable characters or common LGBT public displays of affection featuring NPC's. An example of this would be the lesbian kiss in TLOU2, as it is a forced story event as far as we know, not an optional romance option.

-Censoring or toning down of violence, in some misguided attempt to prevent school shootings or some other such nonsense. 

-Modern Left-wing ideals showing up in historical games where modern left-wing ideals didn't exist.

-Left-wing poltics showing up in modern or future setting games, unless they are countered by right-wing politics that are portrayed in a non-villainous way. 

-Removal of potentially offensive iconography because some wimp might not be able to handle seeing it. An example would be the removal of the Swastika from Battlefield V and CoD WW2 last year. 

-Censoring or toning down of sexy costumes. Some examples of this would be Nintendo of America/Europe not releasing Japanese DLC costumes for a number of games in recent years, because the outfits are sexy. Another example would be the seeming removal of sexy costumes in DoA 6 so far. 

-Feminists like Anita Sarkeesian who want to get rid of sexy female playable characters, under some misguided belief that it places unrealistic expectations on women or some other such nonsense, yet are ok with sexy male playable characters. 

-Attempts to block niche Japanese visual novels from release in the west because they contain sexual content.

 

Things I don't consider to be part of the SJW agenda

-Female playable characters or racial minority characters that make sense for the time period or geographical setting of the game. I have zero problems with female playable characters at all as long as they match the setting and don't feel forced, and even prefer them over male playable characters in many instances, frequently choosing female if there is a choice in game, like the upcoming AC Odyssey. Likewise I have no problem with minority race playable characters or party members as long as they match the setting.

-Optional LGBT romances. Bioware has had LGBT romance options since Juhani in KOTOR way back in 2003, and with only one exception (DA: Origins) I never had a problem with it because it never felt forced. DA:O was a different matter though, Zevran threw himself at me the whole game, which was quite annoying. As long as a developer makes this kind of content entirely optional I have zero problems with it.

You pretty much nailed it.

And fictional environment, no matter how much iit's losely based on any period in time, it is less problematic to be diverse (even if european or black samurai would be silly).

LuccaCardoso1 said:
shikamaru317 said:

Things I consider to be part of the SJW agenda

-Diversity that feels forced. BFV is a prime example of this category, as it features women fighting in combat roles for armies that specifically forbade women from serving in combat roles. Another hypothetical example would be a game set in the rural US that has as many black, hispanic, Asian, native American, etc. characters as white characters. In most rural areas in the US whites make up at least 70% of the total population according to census data (my own county, which is rural, is 95% white as of the 2010 census, while the largest city in my county is 85% white), having a ton of minority characters in such a game would be an example of forced diversity. Another example would be an RPG with a party that covers just about every race just to check-off the diversity box. 

-Anti-religious themes, particularly anti-Christian themes. SJW's can't stand Christians because the Bible speaks against a number of causes that they support, such as abortion and the LGBT movement, and many SJW's also have a problem with other religions for the same reason. As a result, some SJW developers will inject anti-religious themes into their games.

-Forced LGBT romance scenes featuring playable characters or common LGBT public displays of affection featuring NPC's. An example of this would be the lesbian kiss in TLOU2, as it is a forced story event as far as we know, not an optional romance option.

-Censoring or toning down of violence, in some misguided attempt to prevent school shootings or some other such nonsense. 

-Modern Left-wing ideals showing up in historical games where modern left-wing ideals didn't exist.

-Left-wing poltics showing up in modern or future setting games, unless they are countered by right-wing politics that are portrayed in a non-villainous way. 

-Removal of potentially offensive iconography because some wimp might not be able to handle seeing it. An example would be the removal of the Swastika from Battlefield V and CoD WW2 last year. 

-Censoring or toning down of sexy costumes. Some examples of this would be Nintendo of America/Europe not releasing Japanese DLC costumes for a number of games in recent years, because the outfits are sexy. Another example would be the seeming removal of sexy costumes in DoA 6 so far. 

-Feminists like Anita Sarkeesian who want to get rid of sexy female playable characters, under some misguided belief that it places unrealistic expectations on women or some other such nonsense, yet are ok with sexy male playable characters. 

-Attempts to block niche Japanese visual novels from release in the west because they contain sexual content.

 

Things I don't consider to be part of the SJW agenda

-Female playable characters or racial minority characters that make sense for the time period or geographical setting of the game. I have zero problems with female playable characters at all as long as they match the setting and don't feel forced, and even prefer them over male playable characters in many instances, frequently choosing female if there is a choice in game, like the upcoming AC Odyssey. Likewise I have no problem with minority race playable characters or party members as long as they match the setting.

-Optional LGBT romances. Bioware has had LGBT romance options since Juhani in KOTOR way back in 2003, and with only one exception (DA: Origins) I never had a problem with it because it never felt forced. DA:O was a different matter though, Zevran threw himself at me the whole game, which was quite annoying. As long as a developer makes this kind of content entirely optional I have zero problems with it.

Why are non-optional gay romance scenes a problem? Aren't them the same as non-optional hetero romance scenes? You're either for both or against both.

For me I would preffer none being displayed unless iit really is essential. Like in RL, I don't like public display of affection close to sexual encounters in the mid of day or open space of any type of couple. But I don't mind it if done on a place only for adults.



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DonFerrari said:
morenoingrato said:
An SJW agenda in games would be forced diversity and blatant political statements.

Yet most people here will freak over a woman in a game or really stretch games to make them seem as if they had an SJW agenda. Persecutory delusion.

Do you have the statistic for it? Sales of the games with woman doesn't seem to point people are generaly offended by woman being in games.

More funny is people atributing lack of woman or gay people in games as excuses for those groups not buying games, but forgeting that until perhaps PS1 most games had irrecognizable objects or animals for chars and since the 70's male were already a majority of gaming.

I am not saying people are generally offended by women being in games, I'm saying people here in VGChartz  seem to be quite vocal about "forced women" in games, particularly in the past year.

And I completely agree with your second statement, I think gaming tends to attract more males than it does females and the race/gender ethnicity groups in videogames used to be a non-issue. Same can be said for the other side though. Five years ago women in a WW2 game would not have garnered any attention or positive/negative press, and now there's people here that are deeply offended.

If Metroid was released today and then Samus had been shown as a woman in the end you would see a shitstorm.



LuccaCardoso1 said:
Mar1217 said:

I'll just give you references instead.

Yeah, BoTW was good at representing women, but I see no difference between it and Horizon ZD, for example. The difference is that in Horizon you play as a woman. But citing Bayonetta as a good representation of female characters is really stupid. The characters in Bayonetta are probably the most over-sexualized characters in mainstream gaming. They're unapologetically treated as sexual objects to appeal to the hetero male demographic. That doesn't make the games bad, it just makes them not very progressive.

I see, you're on the sex-negative side of sexuality and feminism. 

 

I don't have to much to contribute to the non-discussion that this thread is, but was there really backlash from Aloy in Horizon? I've heard of criticism in most of the things people reference, but I don't remember any criticism about her. I thought most people liked her.



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morenoingrato said:
DonFerrari said:

Do you have the statistic for it? Sales of the games with woman doesn't seem to point people are generaly offended by woman being in games.

More funny is people atributing lack of woman or gay people in games as excuses for those groups not buying games, but forgeting that until perhaps PS1 most games had irrecognizable objects or animals for chars and since the 70's male were already a majority of gaming.

I am not saying people are generally offended by women being in games, I'm saying people here in VGChartz  seem to be quite vocal about "forced women" in games, particularly in the past year.

And I completely agree with your second statement, I think gaming tends to attract more males than it does females and the race/gender ethnicity groups in videogames used to be a non-issue. Same can be said for the other side though. Five years ago women in a WW2 game would not have garnered any attention or positive/negative press, and now there's people here that are deeply offended.

If Metroid was released today and then Samus had been shown as a woman in the end you would see a shitstorm.

You say most. And even in VGC I haven't seem even close to majority being offended by woman in gaming, but sure there are a lot being against SJW or forced diversity, still wouldn't say it is most of people.

What we are seeing is actually 3 or 4 threads in the same days open to criticize people who don't like SJW in nowaday games.

I would guess 5 years ago a woman in a game wouldn't attract much attention because it was done by devs wanting to do it for reasons not related to progressive agenda, that is why there weren't backlash. And even less you would see devs criticizing their public for not liking.

Not sure we would see a backlash from Samus, but sure it is a possibility. But Samus is similar to one thing on the openly gay, most chars aren't openly straight so you can't complain of gays not being presented just because they aren't openly show as that. In RL most cases you won't see a gay or straight being openly about it in public to strangers.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

LuccaCardoso1 said:

I've heard a lot of people complaining about BFV's inclusion of playable female characters saying that we should boycott the game because women "didn't fight in the war", and because that's "historically inaccurate". First of all, women did fight in the war (yes, mostly for the USSR, but it would be stupid to only allow female characters when you're playing in one specific team). Second of all, Battlefield 1 was also very historically inaccurate, and I didn't see anyone boycotting it because of that.

Let's cut the bullshit: I know that most people are complaining about BFV because they think the inclusion of women means EA is promoting an "SJW agenda" (if you're honestly complaining about historical inaccuracies in BFV, you should maybe take a step back and rethink it. No game is absolutely historically accurate, and they're not supposed to be). But what the hell is an "SJW agenda"?

I've also seen people complaining about TLoU 2 and Horizon ZD for the same reasons, just because they feature women, and, in the first case, a lesbian kiss in one of the trailers.

What is an "SJW agenda"? Is having diverse characters an "SJW thing"? Because, you know, the world is not just made of white cis hetero males, so it's just natural that games would not just have white cis hetero males.

If you think that TLoU 2 and Horizon ZD promote an "SJW agenda", give me some examples of games with diverse characters that don't "appeal to the SJW crowd". I'll just ask you not to cite Tomb Raider (as Lara Croft was [and still is a bit] hyper-sexualized) and Metroid (since most people didn't even know that Samus was a girl before the internet).

I'm genuinely intrigued.

Mate i don't know what you're on about, Horizon or TLOU does not have fan backlash, nor people saying that it is going with a SJW agenda.

While the BF5 scenario is not simply about women, but more about fans wanting historical accuracy in a WW2 game. BF1 literary had a black guy on the cover, and a women as the cover of the recon class but no one complained. 

And LOL at your link, you're comparing gameplay elements to visual/environmental elements.  



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ARamdomGamer said:
Adding "minorities" to my established franchises that had no minorities is bad.

Making new IPs with said "minorities" as part of the universe is also bad.

There is no winning here. It will always be forced, an agenda, pandering.

Maybe just maybe, if gaming outlets did not spend their time calling out games for being sexist/racist/....ist then fans wouldn't perceive it as such. 



Kirin_gaming said:
haxxiy said:

Dragon Age: Inquisition had more or less the demographic profile of the modern United States despite being set on a medieval copy of Great Britain and France, and inexplicably had modern atittutes towards transsexuality etc. as well.

Of course, the writers are free to make up a world emotionally appealing to their political views (since I believe indulging in idiosyncracies make fantasy more unique) but don't expect it to be free of criticism, specially if it looks dumb and strains suspension of disbelief.

That's the sort of thing that irks me, when it's absolutely forced and silly.

Dude Dragon Age is a fantasy world, FANTASY.

Does the game having 8 kinds of humanoids apart from humans also irk you?

Strawmanning someone's argument would only serve to lose that argument for you. The moment you try to argue something someone didn't say is the moment you admit that you can't actually refute what they've said.

 

LuccaCardoso1 said:
shikamaru317 said:

I disagree. Hetero relationships are the natural norm, because they serve the biological purpose of reproduction, seeing a man and a woman kiss shouldn't offend anybody. However some people might be offended by being forced to watch a lesbian or gay kiss when playing a game, for religious reasons or maybe they're just homophobic (not that I agree with homophobia). 

Homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. One is just more common than the other.

I don't see why a couple being able to reproduce makes them more socially acceptable. People don't have sex for reproduction 99% of the times they have sex anyway.

And as for people being offended by it because of religious reasons, games already show a lot of killing and blood. If one's not offended by that, I don't see why they should be offended by a kiss.

Do you think developers are pushing an SJW agenda for going against what a prejudiced group wants? There are few ideologies that I know are straight up wrong, and homophobia is one of them. Homophobia is just the modern version of racism.

While homosexuality indeed happens naturally (many agreeing it's even in your DNA), it is by no means the natural state of humans. Nature's intention behind human design is to put that penis into a vagina, pump semen into it, and whip up a baby in about nine months.

 

I personally don't care who is kissing who, as long as the PDA isn't offensively lewd and no one is wiping their nasty face-grime/sweat cocktail all over someone else intentionally, but denying that it's more socially acceptable won't do you any favors in this debate. There are significantly less people out there who are going to be offended by a same sex kids than a gay one, and denying that would really only hurt your argument.

 

Lots of killing and blood in the Bible. Hell, I'd argue that religious text is significantly more brutal than a lot of R-Rated movies.



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I don't have a problem with companies taking liberties so long as everyone knows that's what they're doing. I also don't mind female protagonists. Some of my favorite games have female leads...although none of those are younger than the Feminist Frequency stuff, I might add. Parasite Eve is one of my old favorites, and it's 20 years old this year. Aya is a woman, but she's also the rookie who signs the guestbook.

So my major complaint is not that the game writing is more inclusive, but that the writing quality has gone down the toilet.

And I think that's the SJW goal; to rationalize bad writing.

Good writing is a morality conflict where good morality overcomes poor morality. The how and why are the audience takeaway. Modernity doesn't believe in morality. This means we're stuck with a ton of objectively bad fiction. Doubt this? Compare classic movies like Casablanca, To Kill a Mockingbird, or The Big Country to The Last Jedi. Equality of representation is a made-up writing virtue so bad fiction can have an astroturfed redeeming element.



Ka-pi96 said:
LuccaCardoso1 said:

The problem is when people see politics when there isn't any. Yes, EA execs brought up misogyny and so on, but even before they said anything, when the trailer first came out, people were accusing DICE of being left-winged for having a woman as one of the main characters. Like, wtf? Representing people other than white cis hetero males is not a question of political view, it's just representativity. We shouldn't be attributing sides and polarizing something that just shows us how diverse we are as a species. I can't wrap my head around how someone opposes the thought of having different ethnicities, genders, sexualities et cetera represented.

The videogame industry is so far behind when it comes to diversity. While we have films such as Call Me by Your Name or Moonlight winning Oscars, I can't remember a single big game where the main character was gay. Just look at last year's TGA. In the main categories, all games with fixed main characters follow the same pattern regarding them: 1) If they're human, they're white. 2) If they have a partner, it's from the opposite sex. Both topics are true for 100% of all main characters in games with a fixed main character (no physical appearance customization other than clothing) running for GOTY, Game Direction, Narrative, Art Direction, Score/Music and Audio Design.

That's absolutely a political view as soon as you mentioned that. It sounds like you're saying you want everything to be represented equally at award shows and the like, which is not only a political opinion but is also quite frankly ridiculous. "diversity" shouldn't matter a jot for awards and the like, the only thing that should matter is how good the games are.

It's like awhile back when people complained about a lack of black people nominated for oscars, now I'm not a big movie watcher so maybe there were some great performances by black actors that year in which case you could justify some of the criticism, but otherwise it's absolutely ridiculous to claim that people should be nominated for awards (or even win them) just because of the colour of their skin. No, they should actually have done well enough to deserve an award. It shouldn't matter whether those nominated are 100% white or 0% white, the only thing that should matter is that they're 100% of those that did the best.

That would be known as reverse racism.  Really just regular racism, only you think so lowly of minorities that you believe they can't achieve things for themselves, so you give them a handout.

Conina said:

Well, when I think of skin in RE5, I can only remember this:

 

 

 

 

Noice.

@ OP

You know exactly what a SJW agenda is.  The only difference is that where a growing number of people are against it, you support it.  So you choose to act ignorant to what is going on, use strawman arguments aimed at demonizing those who don't agree with the cause (here, "why do they hate women in video games," even though we have countless examples of games succeeding with women in them), and then make excuses when products constantly fail when they try to push that agenda.



It bothers me in the sense that I don't like them shoving it in the face of gamer's. I don't like people bringing politics into games and I really don't like it when it's done by a developer.