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Forums - General Discussion - Do you believe in God? Why/Why not?

 

Do you believe in any god?

Yes 63 36.21%
 
No 111 63.79%
 
Total:174

how could anyone in the world not be agnostic? if you think theres a 0% chance you're wrong about lifes great questions then you're essentially claiming to be a god. that's insane. the bottom line is weak minded people seek comfort and religion provides it. life IS meaningless, humanity is NOT special, get over yourselves, because we are all trash.



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Runa216 said:
JWeinCom said:

That's actually not true.

The general consensus among historians is that he did exist, but there's far from scientific proof.  The only way historians can really "prove" someone existed is based on contemporary historical documents written about them.  There is some writing about Jesus from sort of contemporary sources, but really not much.  The earliest non-biblical source is Josephus and even that's 30 years after his death.  The earliest gospels are from around the same time and were not written by eyewitnesses.  Paul's letters mention Jesus, but Paul never claimed to have met Jesus (physically anyway).  At best his information is second hand.

If you compare Jesus to say, Socrates, the amount of the evidence for the latter dwarfs the amount of evidence for the former.  And even that would fall short of scientific proof.  Most historians agree that Jesus existed, and not being a historian myself, I'm inclined to take their word for it.  But I don't think any serious historians would claim that there is "scientific proof" for Jesus' existence.

Of course, as you say, the far more important thing is whether or not the claims he allegedly made can be verified.  And those can't be even verified by the looser standards of historical evidence, and definitely not by the standards of science.  

Fair enough, but I'm still not gonna argue with the historians who's job it is to know this stuff. 

I'm not saying to argue with the historians, unless you actually have evidence in which case go for it, but your confidence should be proportionate to theirs.  I've seen debates between mythicists and those who advocate for a historical Jesus, and I'd describe the confidence  confidence level of historical proponents as "pretty sure".  So, I'd say that is the appropriate level of confidence that anyone without specific expertise should have.    



SquirrelWhisperer said:
how could anyone in the world not be agnostic? if you think theres a 0% chance you're wrong about lifes great questions then you're essentially claiming to be a god. that's insane. the bottom line is weak minded people seek comfort and religion provides it. life IS meaningless, humanity is NOT special, get over yourselves, because we are all trash.

None of this has any basis in logic, reason, rationality, or science. Nothing you've said here is correct. It's just a series of faulty, illogical assertions posited by the religious to justify faith.



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JWeinCom said:
Runa216 said:

Fair enough, but I'm still not gonna argue with the historians who's job it is to know this stuff. 

I'm not saying to argue with the historians, unless you actually have evidence in which case go for it, but your confidence should be proportionate to theirs.  I've seen debates between mythicists and those who advocate for a historical Jesus, and I'd describe the confidence  confidence level of historical proponents as "pretty sure".  So, I'd say that is the appropriate level of confidence that anyone without specific expertise should have.    

Pretty sure we're on the same page here. I was agreeing with your post, I just cut out most of the chaff because I don't like spamming the board with huge quote chains. 



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Are people talking only about God in Christianity ?



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vivster said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

the purpose of religion is not to understand God, it is a guidance from God on how to live and what to appreciate in the life given to us, a spiritual identity that benefits ourselves and guides us to help others

religion and priests exist to interpret God's guidance and give it to people, not understand God himself

at least in Christianity, this is very clear

Ecclesiastes 8:16-17

16 I tried to understand all that happens on earth. I saw how busy people are, working day and night and hardly ever sleeping. 17 I also saw all that God has done. Nobody can understand what God does here on earth. No matter how hard people try to understand it, they cannot. Even if wise people say they understand, they cannot; no one can really understand it.

“For <crossreference=NASB-18750Z>as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
" data-verse-title="Isaiah 55:8-9" data-translation-id="523557" data-toggle="modal" data-target=".tools-modal">Tools

" data-hasqtip="0" aria-describedby="qtip-0">Isaiah 55:8-9

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

“Behold, God is <crossreference=NASB-13763AF>exalted, and <crossreference=NASB-13763AG>we do not know Him;
The <crossreference=NASB-13763AH>number of His years is unsearchable.
" data-verse-title="Job 36:26" data-translation-id="518570" data-toggle="modal" data-target=".tools-modal">Tools
" data-hasqtip="1" aria-describedby="qtip-1">Job 36:26

“Behold, God is exalted, and we do not know Him;
The number of His years is unsearchable.

Who <crossreference=NASB-12961J>does great and unsearchable things,
<footnote=NASB-12961d>Wonders without number.
" data-verse-title="Job 5:9" data-translation-id="517768" data-toggle="modal" data-target=".tools-modal">Tools
" data-hasqtip="3" aria-describedby="qtip-3">Job 5:9

Who does great and unsearchable things,
Wonders without number.

“<crossreference=NASB-13116G>Can you discover the depths of God?
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?
" data-verse-title="Job 11:7" data-translation-id="517923" data-toggle="modal" data-target=".tools-modal">Tools
" data-hasqtip="4" aria-describedby="qtip-4">Job 11:7

“Can you discover the depths of God?
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?

How can we derive guidance from something that we don't understand? And why take guidance from someone whose motivation we don't know? Why worship something we don't understand? Why even trust it?

Because it theorically means good for all of us. 



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SpokenTruth said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

1). Jesus is scientifically proved to have existed, 2). Saints and Apostles are scientifically proved to have lived, suffered and died for believing in something, 3). Old Testament prophesying Jesus is scientifically proved to have been written hundreds of years before him, and he is scientifically proved to have lived and 4). fulfilled those prophesies (those that can be proved at least)

5). of course now you can deny that these people had any connection to God, but still that doesn't make it a fairy tale

present day, scientific research proves that people who follow the Christian lifestyle - guided by Jesus, 6). show higher life satisfaction and personal happiness than the non-fairy tale believers, 7). they also make more long-lasting and happy marriages and have 8). lower cancer rates, too good for believing a fairy tale, right?

9). it is scientifically proven that Christian diet lifestyle (limited meat diet) significantly reduces cancer rate, but how could the ancients know? 10). also proven that red meat increases sex drive, therefore consumption is limited under Christianity to focus on real love instead of hormone drive, how could the ancients know?

Jesus teaching makes perfect sense, and believers or not, 11). most sensible people follow the basics at least, 12). and under those the West world was built (13). best way of life right), a coincidence?

14). too many coincidences for one fairy tale


I agree there have been some things thought to be by God because there was no other explanation at the time, 15). but why is this even important? the faith was never based on those anyway, 16). just because we have an explanation for rain, it doesn't mean that Jesus was fake

but there are also things, 17). like Jesus miracles that are marked as fake because there is no other explanation, 18). so the contrary also holds, isn't that too convenient for atheists though?

there are still things that cannot be explained, some could be from God like Big Bang, some could not, 19). but why does it matter as much? as long as we cannot bring back the dead, give consciousness/free will to something, or disprove it, or 20). understand the Big Bang and where the quarks and photons come from, 21). there is more than enough room for God, and 22). I highly, highly doubt these will ever be achieved, and the answer is simple, the 23). creation cannot reach the creator, only the other way round, and it has already happened

Buckle up.

1). His existence is not really debated.  His divinity, however, is.

2). Living, suffering and dying for what you believe in doesn't make what you believe in true. Mohammad was real, suffered and died for his cause I bet you don't subscribe to the Islamic faith, do you?  John Smith? 

3). Prophesizing a Messiah doesn't mean anything. Nothing specified Jesus.  Only vague allusions to a king, a messiah, etc...

4). Claiming a prophecy as being fulfilled is itself a self-fulfilling prophecy. If today I said there will one day be a great leader born out of England, well that's a pretty easy prophecy to claim as fulfilled if one day a great leader is born out of England of which surely there will be. 

5). But indeed it does.  Simply on the grounds that you cannot prove it is not. And a fairy tale (or fictional story, fable, whatever you like to call it) is merely a story of intentional creation or of unverifiable reality. To say nothing of the replication of stories of creation, sin, flooding, plagues, virgin births, resurrections, etc...since the dawn of time.  They were merely that - tales, stories, fables, etc.....until people learned to use them as a means of control.

6). Correlation is not causation. And happiness polls such as that fail to grasp the broader factors that lead to happiness.  Society, social support, community, finances, etc...   If you live in a highly religious location, family is highly religious, etc...it's easy to understand that happiness would be tied to being part of that highly religious community.  Not from the religion itself but the simply nature of humanity and wanting to belong to something that supports you.

7). Lol.  Have you seen the divorce rates among everyone? Nearly 50% of all US marriages end in divorce or separation. Further, your claim about long-lasting might actually be a bad thing.  Many Christians see divorce as wrong regardless of the need.

8). See number 6 again.

9). What the hell is a Christian diet lifestyle?  Oh, what.  You mean don't eat animals originally offered as sacrifice by pagan religions.  Don't eat things that slither.  Don't each shellfish (you're missing out) or fish without scales (again, you're missing out). That diet?  Because it actually doesn't say anything about limited red meat. Not just that, but other parts of the Bible completely say otherwise...eat whatever.

10). A. An increase sex drive does not have a thing to do with romantic love. Rather silly to think you must reduce your sex drive to have romantic love.  B. How do they know read meat increases sex drive?  Science.  It's called a study.  Take 100 people.  Have half eat red meat the other half eat no red meat.  Compare their reported sex drives post dinner.  C. It should also be noted that red meat was often considered a status food eaten only by those with sufficient means. 

11). I wish. Do you realize how different the world would be if they actually 'did what Jesus would do'? Most Christians are what I call garage Christians.  They think going to church makes them Christian.  But this is not more valid than standing in your garage makes you a car.

12). Uh, no.  Under slavery, colonization, war, exploitation, land theft, etc...was the west built.

13). No. Again, happiness is a broad set of factors that have far more to do with community and social circumstances than religion.  Why do you think the Nordic countries continually rate highest on these polls? Certainly isn't their religion given that church attendance and affiliation has dropped significantly over the past 4 decades.

14). I can make up a fairy tale that is 99.99% true....still a fairy tale.

15). In truth, it wouldn't be.  But it becomes important when it is used to establish law, institutions, policy, social acceptance, education, etc.... 

16). Nobody is saying Jesus is fake because we can explain rain.  What we are saying is that what we used to attribute as the actions of Gods (and demons) has a long his of becoming far less supernatural after extensive study. Further, when you cannot answer a question and you then give a supernatural explanation, you tend to stop trying to answer the question altogether. Think of all the knowledge lost if we never questioned anything we couldn't initially explain?

17). That's precisely why they are marked as fake (or at best extreme embellishments of the truth - that fish I caught was this big...). Water to wine?  When you understand chemistry and physics, you recognize the irrationality of this 'miracle'. 

18). There is nothing convenient about it. It's chemistry and physics. If you want to play the God card, you can say it's God's own rules that are being broken by miracles.  So how is that a convenience for atheists?

19). This goes back to Point 15). In general, it doesn't matter unless it impedes on matters it shouldn't.

20). Why can't we understand the Big Bang and where quarks and photons come from? We've come an incredibly long way in our understanding in just the past 100 years.

21). Room for God is irrelevant to scientific development. You can have room for God and study the cosmos in earnest so long as you don't rest upon the God of the Gaps fallacy. Again, it's mental entrapment of limiting yourself and your studies because you'd rather just say God did it than actually explore the facts.

22). Well, you already know this fallacy.  Who/What created the creator.  A watch may never understand the watchmaker...but the watchmaker was still created.

Um, hello? 911? I'm calling to report a murder...

(As an aside, I used to do stuff like this all the time. Sentence by sentence breakdown explaining in detail why every step of their logical process was just hilariously wrong and off-base. I came to realize in time that the more you prove someone wrong, the deeper they dig in your heels. you're right, and I want you to know I appreciate you, but if you wanted to convince him, you're wasting your time, sadly.)



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Metallox said:
vivster said:

How can we derive guidance from something that we don't understand? And why take guidance from someone whose motivation we don't know? Why worship something we don't understand? Why even trust it?

Because it theorically means good for all of us. 

Anyone can claim any ideology will mean lead to good things.  Does that mean you should follow them?



SpokenTruth said:
Runa216 said:

Um, hello? 911? I'm calling to report a murder...

(As an aside, I used to do stuff like this all the time. Sentence by sentence breakdown explaining in detail why every step of their logical process was just hilariously wrong and off-base. I came to realize in time that the more you prove someone wrong, the deeper they dig in your heels. you're right, and I want you to know I appreciate you, but if you wanted to convince him, you're wasting your time, sadly.)

I've often thought not to do a full breakdown of posts like these, and while you are correct that it often serves little purpose in persuading the individual being quoted, it does have value to the community at large.

I may not persuade him (though it would be great if it did and it has on occasion) but it might persuade someone else on the periphery. Another member, a lurker or a guest. 

And of course, there is the community factor itself.  For some, it's entertainment.  For others, it stokes newer debate.  So in that sense, I may not be doing a full breakdown for the sole benefit of whom I quoted but rather for the benefit everyone else.

Like they say, when you engage in debate you're not doing it for the sake of your opponent but for the audience. 



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SpokenTruth said:
Metallox said:

Because it theorically means good for all of us. 

"Good" based on what?  From who's perspective of morality? 

Typo on theoretically, damn. 

Good based on the teachings and designs of the original messengers of each religion. They, after all, communicate the intentions of their respective deities. It's also from their own perspective of morality. 

Yes, this effectively means that the values of each religion are completely arbitrary and man-made, so they don't necessarily represent the divinity of each religion. 

But, I mean, that's why I said in theory it means good for us. We are supposed to take for granted these people's words and believe their knowledge comes from a deity, which in turn will keep us from all evil. 

I'm not sure if I responded like I had to, btw, lol



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