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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Blizzard says Overwatch On Switch Is feasible, but StarCraft 2 Isn't

Marth said:

So I went trough the whole thread of the last community update on bnet and no one is talking about the 12 worker start. Most of the discussion is about lategame balance.
How can Stats get steamrolled when he even won another map? The result was 4-3. In what universe is that a stomp?

When you say Protoss matchup, which one do you mean? Because there are 2. The 12 worker start took out those boring 5 minutes at the start of each game because nothing happened in them. In very rare cases there was a proxy or cannon rush but those still exist today so those builds didn't die out. The 12 worker start did not hurt build orders in any way. It just made the startup phase of each game shorter which is a good thing because the first 5 minutes in HotS or WoL were the same in each game you played.

If you are talking about PvZ: While Protoss is expanding faster Zerg has also way more efficient untis with the Ravager, the new Hydra and the Lurker. So it is not that reliant on having a lot more economy than in previos iterations of SC2. If Protoss build a 3rd base early Zerg can easily counter with a ling attack because the defense of the Protoss at that point exists of maybe 2 Adepts which is not enough for 20 Lings. If anything Zerg is currently favored versus Protoss. The amount of cheeses and pushes is mostly the same. But the cheeses are played on one base and pretty easy to scout. Current pushes are Zealot-Archon, Resonating-glaive adepts, blink Stalker and Chargelot, With the exception of the Adept all of those existed already in HotS and all of them can be scouted with Overlord+Speedupgrade or some Zerglings around the Protoss Base.

Balance is also in a very good spot. No strategies exist that win you the game no matter what. There is always a possibility to fight back. In WoL Broodlord-Infestor was unbeatable because it had everything. Instant lockdown, lots of damage on ground and air. Its a good thing that does not exist anymore. Each army in LotV has its drawback regardless of race.

No competetive online game that works in real time is hack proof. Dota and League have hacks. Fortnite has some. And StarCraft will also always have some. But they have gotten way rarer. HotS was the worst point when it comes to hackers. LotV release broke all of the hacks and now new ones are coming up but Blizzard is still fighting them. Also just visited a hacker forum and they don't give away the hacks to the public. Only via pm on request. But please send me a PM where a working public hack for multiplayer is available. Because you can find a lot of singleplayer hacks. For those Blizz doesn't care. I have not encountered any hacker in my games ever. If it is such a rampant problem why haven't I found one yet? In fact I haven't heard anything about hackers from the German community. Neither pro players nor casuals.

So please I would love to know your side. And please be specific.

I'll dig up the prior discussions in CF threads later.

Saying that 12W cuts out 5 minutes of doing nothing is the same flawed notion David Kim had when he implemented the change, with 6W that period was actually the most influential because not only did decisions at this point impact the rest of the game but they carried equal amount of risk and reward for all players simply taking even just one gas slowed down your natural and would tip your opponent off that you weren't going for an expo but for tech or an attack which is why WOL and HOTS were heavily based around scouting this was the nature of the early game with 6w. With 12w start players start with near full mineral saturation and the reduced amount of workers n built in comparison to 6w are resources that go into getting a fast base up while the opening build is being executed and taking gases is not a hindrance leading to builds that weren't meant to be viable in SC2's design.

Each race was conceived and balanced around fundamental aspects as well as their own traits in SC2, Protoss was never designed to be fast expanding because their tech units and end game army is stronger in engagements than the other two this is seen in both WOL and HOTS where Protoss in each match up was always the last to expand they were always the slower to progress but when they get there hardest to deal with. Economy actually has a massive affect on balance this is why the previous 2 expansions had 6 worker start to put things in a basic manner every race being able to fast expand and such maybe the same economy resource wise but is not actual economically balanced as far as the races go as it ignores the fundamental design of each race. To highlight how this impacts the match ups (all of them as they all have problems) before when a Protoss went for a tech path they would only be able to dedicate on one particular comp or strat until they get 3 bases up minimum as each comp or strat would require a specific response from Terran or Zerg, with the boosted econ in LOTV Protoss have an added flexibility as well as the Nexus going down behind their opener for example Twilight Council can lead to 4 very different attacks that require very different responses to deal with otherwise you just die outright and now Protoss players can deviate between strats while an expo is going up meaning even if the attack does little damage they can still stay in the game just fine.

Lurkers are lair tech by the time you get them you can not punish a fast expanding Protoss with them because their expo would have already kicked in and they would have invested into units only way for Lurkers to even help in this situation is if you're doing a super all in strat which very likely wouldn't work due to the cuts you'd need to do to even attempt it, Ravagers against Protoss are a massive risk especially as the common Protoss openers Stargate and Robo counter them hard and with shield batteries in play not as many units are required to hold such pushes. Unlike Protoss pushes Zerg are far more all in. Balance isn't in a good spot as I've mentioned all 3 races have severe issues, Terran has a very poor late game leading to many Terrans on ladder doing 2 base all ins, Protoss is a roulette of random openers and cheese which you have to guess correctly or you die or they try to mass the near invincible Carrier army while Zerg has no composition diversity as they cannot deviate from the usual comps what so ever this leads to the chaos on the online ladder. BL/Infestor was the result of a bandaid patch that highlights my whole issue with SC2's balance teams as the Infestor was a useless unit so they gave it a mindless patch that changed FG only now the spell countered every unit which made the Infestor the most powerful unit in the game as FG couldn't be dodged and is AOE what was the balance team's response? Add the Tempest in HOTS to counter Broodlords which weren't the problem.

I've already posted 2 links with videos one even showing someone streaming with them they're very much still a big problem and have been all year for a third reference linked below this was earlier in the year, pretending the isn't a problem makes things worse, the proof is right in front of you and it can't be argued. Blizzard have always fought hacks but the was one thing that aided them in the fight and that was the risk of being banned from using hacks, these programs were always around the was just a big incentive to not use them and that incentive went out the window with f2p.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7wb19c/creep_spread_and_inject_hacks_are_100_back/



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Wrong thread.

Last edited by Miyamotoo - on 17 August 2018

Marth said:
Pemalite said:

It also costs a fortune in PAL territory's. Like $250-$1,400 expensive.
I want a N64 classic so I can finally have the game again.

Another issue with StarCraft 2 coming to consoles is the CPU, it's a CPU hog like most RTS games, especially during the end game when things are busy, not exactly the Switch's strong point.
With that in mind, Halo Wars has proven that RTS games can work with a controller.

From what I've heard the controls of StarCraft 64 were painful.
And I can't picture SC2 running good on a controller setup.


Halo Wars was at least desiged for a controller while StarCraft would be a port.
SC2 has a lot of highspeed interactions and those would have to be rebalanced for a console release.
While I don't think it is impossible to make the control scheme work i am pretty certain it would not feel that good.
Maybe as campaign and coop mode only.

I used to play the game all the time on the Nintendo 64.
The controls were certainly painful... But the entire game compensated for that and was re-balanced to a degree.

Back then RTS games were extremely cumbersome (To be fair... Still are) on console, so it was expected.

Blizzard did actually automate a few things like resource gathering to reduce the demand on managing resources and gatherers... And at the time was certainly the best RTS game on console.

For StarCraft 2 to work on console, Blizzard needs to look at Halo Wars... That is before we even start considering the CPU issue.




--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Zach808 said:

Wait, people were expecting SC2? Did they even announce that for PS/Xbox yet?  I know Overwatch already has a console port, so I could see that coming eventually.

I don't think it can run on them either.

The problem here is that SC2 is heavily CPU limited. Only running on 2 CPU threads isn't helping matters either, making 6 of the 8 cores useless.



Wyrdness said:
areason said:

GSL vs the World is more like fun show matches then an actual tournament, the players are literary voted into the tournament. And Serral didn't swatt Stats, the series was close. Not taking anything away from his win, but Maru has been dominating the most competitive league in the world.

If protos fast expands it can't cheese, it can't even pressure Zerg. Protos can only pressure Zerg after it gets 3 adepts, and they'l be coming from 1 gate so it will take a while. Mate the 12 worker strat really hurts cheese, before you could 6 pool and your opponent wouldn't have even started a gateway or a barracks, now if you 12 pool and use your larva on lings right away, you're gonna reach their base and see a completed rax. 

If you first or 2nd expand you're not going to push before the 6-8 minute mark unless you're zerg, and your initial harass won't come before 4 minutes. You can say that shield batteries really created a lot of cheeses for Protos, but they're also costly. 

 

Serral has won all major WCS tournaments before going on to win GSL vs World.

With this you just effectively told me you don't play on ladder at all as Protoss cheese while throwing down an expo on ladder all the time especially in the PvZ match up most Zergs on ladder go pool first as result because shield battery cheeses are incredibly strong. What a Protoss does is they cheese or all in you and you have to respond and respect the attack and while they're attacking many will throw down a Nexus behind it and wall off and to further add to it they can recall what ever units they were attacking with to save them for later, this undermines the game's fundamentals because Protoss was designed so that they can play from a base down and the Terran and Zerg had to be a base up now they're even on bases given them an econ boost that's if often brought up in Bnet.

With 12 pool if you're just building lings to cheese then no wonder you don't get what is being said as the most common cheese from Zerg is the ravager rush which is another strong attack as they'll attack your depots and rax and the splash damage from the bile makes repairs problematic.

Mate the WCS circuit is region locked, he's the best foreigner. not the best in the world.

I play ladder, and you have no clue what you're talking about. If protos is cheesing then they are all inning, they will not have the money nor the intent to through down an expansion. The ravager rush is not a cheese, it's a rush which is significantly later then a ling all in. All you need is a banshee/void ray a siege tank or an immortal and you stop it. Shield batteries cost 150, you can't expand and cheese, it isn't possible economically. Just watch how Has plays, he cheeses every game, and he never expands when doing so because it isn't possible.  



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Another fun fact about StarCraft 64 - it retained all the pre-rendered cut scenes from the PC game. Granted they were heavily compressed and pixelated but they were in there.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
Another fun fact about StarCraft 64 - it retained all the pre-rendered cut scenes from the PC game. Granted they were heavily compressed and pixelated but they were in there.

Only the intro Cinematic was retained... And it was shortened massively.
Speech in mission briefings was also removed, which in my opinion impacted the atmosphere and narrative of the game, especially with how great the voice acting was, thus I would have rather the full voiced dialog rather than FMV.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
SpokenTruth said:
Another fun fact about StarCraft 64 - it retained all the pre-rendered cut scenes from the PC game. Granted they were heavily compressed and pixelated but they were in there.

Only the intro Cinematic was retained... And it was shortened massively.
Speech in mission briefings was also removed, which in my opinion impacted the atmosphere and narrative of the game, especially with how great the voice acting was, thus I would have rather the full voiced dialog rather than FMV.

Weird.  Thought I remember seeing more than just the intro but that was a long time ago.

And I definitely agree about the voice dialog. 



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

areason said:
Wyrdness said:

 

Serral has won all major WCS tournaments before going on to win GSL vs World.

With this you just effectively told me you don't play on ladder at all as Protoss cheese while throwing down an expo on ladder all the time especially in the PvZ match up most Zergs on ladder go pool first as result because shield battery cheeses are incredibly strong. What a Protoss does is they cheese or all in you and you have to respond and respect the attack and while they're attacking many will throw down a Nexus behind it and wall off and to further add to it they can recall what ever units they were attacking with to save them for later, this undermines the game's fundamentals because Protoss was designed so that they can play from a base down and the Terran and Zerg had to be a base up now they're even on bases given them an econ boost that's if often brought up in Bnet.

With 12 pool if you're just building lings to cheese then no wonder you don't get what is being said as the most common cheese from Zerg is the ravager rush which is another strong attack as they'll attack your depots and rax and the splash damage from the bile makes repairs problematic.

Mate the WCS circuit is region locked, he's the best foreigner. not the best in the world.

I play ladder, and you have no clue what you're talking about. If protos is cheesing then they are all inning, they will not have the money nor the intent to through down an expansion. The ravager rush is not a cheese, it's a rush which is significantly later then a ling all in. All you need is a banshee/void ray a siege tank or an immortal and you stop it. Shield batteries cost 150, you can't expand and cheese, it isn't possible economically. Just watch how Has plays, he cheeses every game, and he never expands when doing so because it isn't possible.  

You play ladder yet don't know the cost of a shield battery and try to claim I don't know what I'm on about? Yeah sure mate, SB for a start cost 100 minerals the same as a pylon Has never expands full stop he can't function in a standard game want an example of what I highlight go watch Parting's stream on ladder he does exactly as I'm saying especially in PvZ. Your comments on Ravager rush is hilariously wrong go say that on Bnet I dare to go on there a claim Ravager rush is not a cheese you'll be blown out hard, the build even revolves around a 12 pool the same 12 pool you earlier said was a cheese so nice way to contradict yourself and the attack hits before any units are ready to deal with it especially if you expanded, Maynarde even casted a game of it yesterday on stream.

It's clear you have little clue on the ladder so don't reply to me with any more nonsense.



Wyrdness said:
areason said:

Mate the WCS circuit is region locked, he's the best foreigner. not the best in the world.

I play ladder, and you have no clue what you're talking about. If protos is cheesing then they are all inning, they will not have the money nor the intent to through down an expansion. The ravager rush is not a cheese, it's a rush which is significantly later then a ling all in. All you need is a banshee/void ray a siege tank or an immortal and you stop it. Shield batteries cost 150, you can't expand and cheese, it isn't possible economically. Just watch how Has plays, he cheeses every game, and he never expands when doing so because it isn't possible.  

You play ladder yet don't know the cost of a shield battery and try to claim I don't know what I'm on about? Yeah sure mate, SB for a start cost 100 minerals the same as a pylon Has never expands full stop he can't function in a standard game want an example of what I highlight go watch Parting's stream on ladder he does exactly as I'm saying especially in PvZ. Your comments on Ravager rush is hilariously wrong go say that on Bnet I dare to go on there a claim Ravager rush is not a cheese you'll be blown out hard, the build even revolves around a 12 pool the same 12 pool you earlier said was a cheese so nice way to contradict yourself and the attack hits before any units are ready to deal with it especially if you expanded, Maynarde even casted a game of it yesterday on stream.

It's clear you have little clue on the ladder so don't reply to me with any more nonsense.

I don't play P, both ways a pylon and a couple of batteries in their natural or outside of it and you're going to have the cost of a nexus and more. And that's without looking at an early stargate or robo which means earlier gases and less minerals, and without looking at added production which again costs minerals. You don't know what a cheese is, a 4-5 minute push with roach/ravager is not a cheese, but instead an early push. A cheese would be anything that involves a proxy, or something like DT blink. It's like saying that a 2-1-1 terran 4 minute push is a cheese. I'm not contradicting yourself you just don't know what you're on about, a roach rush has a later timing then a 12 pool rush. Roach/ravager does not hit before any of your units are ready, unless you are going for a greedy build.

If you're bad and you die to cheese every time you need to learn how to scout, and how to react, instead of being mad and raging at the balance of the game. 

What parting does on ladder is irrelevant, you don't see protos players cheesing every game vs Zerg or even doing it often. The most common thing to do right now is an archon drop for harass. Has is the best cheeser in the professional scene and he's had 1 good run in all his WCS events in the past 4 years.