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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is the United States really a developed country?

pastro243 said:
kopstudent89 said:

One thing that dictates why the US is so different is the Geography. It's huge, with people living all over (something Canada doesn't have as bad). And let's say in the UK, it's easier to control a more densely populated country, so much so the police don't need guns. #

Regarding poverty, the fact is Europe has social housing for all and I have noticed that the amount of homelessness in the US is relatively high compared. I'm guessing this goes back to certain policies and some cultural things (like how socialism is frowned upon in the States while in Europe it's part of the fabric of society).

I think it's more of a cultural thing, the gun issue 

Gun violence is highest in urban, densely populated areas and it overwhelmingly a gang problem.

The five most dangerous counties (all Democrats) have 68% of all murders. According to a 2013 PEW Research Center survey, the household gun ownership rate in rural areas was 2.11 times greater than in urban areas... Despite lower gun ownership, urban areas experience much higher murder rates.

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/

Mexico has 5x the murder rate of the US, but strict gun control, again a gang problem foremost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate



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HomokHarcos said:

Mississippi is pretty poor

 

Mississippi has an average household income of 40K which is higher than many western European nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income



numberwang said:
pastro243 said:

I think it's more of a cultural thing, the gun issue 

Gun violence is highest in urban, densely populated areas and it overwhelmingly a gang problem.

The five most dangerous counties (all Democrats) have 68% of all murders. According to a 2013 PEW Research Center survey, the household gun ownership rate in rural areas was 2.11 times greater than in urban areas... Despite lower gun ownership, urban areas experience much higher murder rates.

 

Okay, that is some very misleading data if I've ever sawn it. First of all, 5 counties != 5% of counties.. 5% of counties = 150 counties with highest *absolute number* of murders, here. Not murder rates. Important, because;

 

the 150 largest counties, of the US, also happen to have well over 50% of the US population.

 

On the other hand, 1881 out of 3242 US counties have a population of less than 20k, which means that by pure probability, it's unlikely for them to have a murder with a national homicide rate of 5/100k.

 

As a whole... this is just a chart of US population distribution. Congrats.

 

I definitely disagree with saying that the US isn't a developed country - it definitely is, by almost all metrics, economic, but also education, as well as socially, even if the OP would deny it. But, as a such, it really shouldn't put it's aims at besting Mexico in any statistics. 

 

Among all developed nations, the US stands out strikingly for its homicide rate. It's also definitely not a problem isolated to a select few locations, as you attempted to claim.

 

*ALL 50* US states have homicide rates higher than that of the EU (1.1) - the most obvious counterparts, worldwide. This is, actually, rather bizarre, as within those 50 states, it's possible to find high and low gun ownership, tighter or looser regulation, rural and urban populations, culturally diverse and uniform populations, etc... and yet, none of these factors usually blamed for criminality seem to be sufficient to push the homicide rate down to the expected level. My best guess would be a cultural issue, deeply ingrained within American identity. Canada, culturally, isn't too far off, which could explain its own rather high rate of 1.68 (still lower than the US - but definitely room for improvement).



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numberwang said:
pastro243 said:

I think it's more of a cultural thing, the gun issue 

Gun violence is highest in urban, densely populated areas and it overwhelmingly a gang problem.

The five most dangerous counties (all Democrats) have 68% of all murders. According to a 2013 PEW Research Center survey, the household gun ownership rate in rural areas was 2.11 times greater than in urban areas... Despite lower gun ownership, urban areas experience much higher murder rates.

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/

Mexico has 5x the murder rate of the US, but strict gun control, again a gang problem foremost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

I thought we were comparing to UK going by the post I quoted, which has also highly populated areas (last poster said it was the reason police didn't have to use guns)

On US murder rate, it's still pretty high compared to other developed countries. Hell, even countries from south america have lower rates such as Chile, and Argentina and Ecuador have comparable rates



pokoko said:

Comparing the US to small nations with a fraction of the population is kind of silly.  The magnitude of issues is nowhere near the same order.  Even comparing different parts of the US to each other isn't a simple task.

Aeolus451 said:
What a nonsensical opinion to have. Of course, it's a developed country. Alot of the things you used as examples (murders, poor education, slums) of an undeveloped country were in areas that have been under lefty control for a loooong time. 😹

Right, like the Republicans have been able to fix anything.  lololo

Both parties have had their chances and both need to be held responsible.  I can't even imagine the viewpoint that would give either a party a passing grade.

Actually, they tend to do when they're running the show for awhile. 



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Aeolus451 said:
pokoko said:

Comparing the US to small nations with a fraction of the population is kind of silly.  The magnitude of issues is nowhere near the same order.  Even comparing different parts of the US to each other isn't a simple task.

Right, like the Republicans have been able to fix anything.  lololo

Both parties have had their chances and both need to be held responsible.  I can't even imagine the viewpoint that would give either a party a passing grade.

Actually, they tend to do when they're running the show for awhile. 

Especually on the state level. There is a lot of good republican policy there, they get shit done. Federal republicans are laughable. Federal and state democrats are exactly the same, they blame others.



pastro243 said: I thought we were comparing to UK going by the post I quoted, which has also highly populated areas (last poster said it was the reason police didn't have to use guns)


On US murder rate, it's still pretty high compared to other developed countries. Hell, even countries from south america have lower rates such as Chile, and Argentina and Ecuador have comparable rates

The US objectively has a violence problem.

Fortunately, its predominately in concentrated areas and much of is gang related. That means we know where much of the problem is but we just ignore it because dealing with it would mean imprisoning the downtrodden.

If we simply dealt with gangs more seriously, we could cut our murder rate down significantly. But we don't, its actually become a political issue. Kinda like how they try to hide immigrant violence in Europe.



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Ka-pi96 said:
numberwang said:

Mississippi has an average household income of 40K which is higher than many western European nations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

Source for median household income in western European nations?

Edit: Even if you do have a source (which I doubt), household income is not a good one to compare wealth by. It could mean people there are wealthier than in a place with lower household income, it could also just mean that the people there are too poor to be able to move out of their family homes and therefore there are a lot less households and thus obviously a higher average income per household. If you want to make a fairer comparison, look for the average wage per person, rather than per household.

Why would you assume that such data is not available in developed countries? Spain and Italy for example are far below 40K hh income. Family structure only comes into play if there are multiple bread winners and I don't think the situation is so fundamentally different in US or western Europe. 

http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/04/24/middle-class-fortunes-in-western-europe/st_2017-04-24_western-europe-middle-class_0-02/

Last edited by numberwang - on 13 July 2018

Ka-pi96 said:
RaptorChrist said:

I've lived in the Chicago-land area for my entire life, which is one of the largest cities in America.

With more than 7 billion people in the world, I oftentimes find myself wondering how I got so lucky to be born with so many natural advantages (white, American, male). I try not to take these things for granted, as there are many less fortunate individuals that struggle to make ends meat.

I believe that most would agree (although some would not like to admit it) that many people who live in other parts of the world are envious of Americans. With so many people from all over the world immigrating to the US, I would imagine that many people know somebody in their life who has moved here. And in many cases, that person who moved to the US was maybe less deserving than you.

And knowing that said person is now making more money and living a more successful life than you, despite maybe having a less desirable job, can feel unfair. Thus, people form negative opinions of the US and latch onto any negative press. In fact, hearing people say negative things about the US makes you feel a little bit better about your own situation.

It's common for people to dislike something that they themselves cannot be a part of. We see this everywhere.

"I own a PS4. I hate Xbox."
"I don't make a lot of money. I don't care about material things."
"I live in Europe. I don't like the US."

The United States is the most influential country on Earth.

Edit: Not trying to offend anyone here. I have no hard feelings for these individuals and can completely understand their frustration.

A lot of that is simply wrong. A lot of the people here who are discussing this are Canadian or European. I can assure you we're not envious, and we can make just as much money and be just as successful as Americans, except it's actually easier for us because we don't have to pay a fortune for education

Except you guys pay a lot more in taxes, so your education isn't exactly free. Also, how come Europe or Canada doesn't have their Silicon Valley or Hollywood? They have film studios and tech companies, but not like the US. Is it because it is far easier to be an entrepreneur in America because of the lower taxes and fewer regulations or are there other reasons? We got Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Facebook, Twitter and a lot more. We've got most of the major film studios and most of the major music labels. Then when you look at the music industry, the NFL and NBA, you realize that the US has more wealthy black people than any other nation on Earth? In fact, I remember reading somewhere that if you added up all the wealth of the entire black population of the United States, you would have the 14th largest economy in the world. Why is this? What is it that we were able to get right that you guys weren't? 



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Jon-Erich said:
Ka-pi96 said:

A lot of that is simply wrong. A lot of the people here who are discussing this are Canadian or European. I can assure you we're not envious, and we can make just as much money and be just as successful as Americans, except it's actually easier for us because we don't have to pay a fortune for education

Except you guys pay a lot more in taxes, so your education isn't exactly free. Also, how come Europe or Canada doesn't have their Silicon Valley or Hollywood? They have film studios and tech companies, but not like the US. Is it because it is far easier to be an entrepreneur in America because of the lower taxes and fewer regulations or are there other reasons? We got Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM, Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Facebook, Twitter and a lot more. We've got most of the major film studios and most of the major music labels. Then when you look at the music industry, the NFL and NBA, you realize that the US has more wealthy black people than any other nation on Earth? In fact, I remember reading somewhere that if you added up all the wealth of the entire black population of the United States, you would have the 14th largest economy in the world. Why is this? What is it that we were able to get right that you guys weren't? 

I definitely agree that the United States is more innovative. Canadian cinema is such a joke that most people can't even name one Canadian movie. I also think the US has more freedom of speech than in Canada. But the social services are very poor in the United States than Canada, and if you're not well of Canada is better.