mZuzek said:
Yeah, maybe... I don't really agree on the dungeons, though I kinda do. I would have them get rid of Shrines and Divine Beasts for a future game, I'd really like to have maybe a smaller world, with say ~10 proper huge dungeons, and 20 or 25 mini-dungeons that are more like the larger Shrines, but with different aesthetics of course. I'd like to have a lot more indoors, or underworld as you put it, because it could be so exciting to come across a large cave or some sort of temple randomly walking around, then go in and find an awesome dungeon, instead of how it is in Breath of the Wild, which is 99% outdoors, hell even the dungeons aren't really indoors! But I don't really wanna agree, because ultimately I liked it. I liked having all these little puzzles scattered around the map in each Shrine, and I definitely liked the Divine Beasts - the feeling I had going into my first one (Naboris) for the first time, it was the most awesome thing ever. It was infinitely cooler and more epic than anything in any previous Zelda game, and honestly, it felt like nothing I ever experienced in a game. Having played the game for dozens of hours, explored most of the map, and having finally gone to the desert and doing all that huge quest to get there, right inside this menacing as fuck mechanical thunder beast clouded in sandstorms, and then actually playing through a crazy-ass Zelda dungeon inside it as it moved along the desert with this awesome music, my god it was so fucking cool the first time (and speaking of music, might I add all the Divine Beast music is breathtaking). Then actually getting to the boss, getting my ass handed to me in 2 seconds, and as a result having to hand over the controller to my friend, who beat it first time (well he knew to defend against the teleport attack thing!). I don't know, I can't bring myself to dislike the DBs, not after that experience. I know Naboris is far and away the best dungeon in this game in nearly every aspect, and most people didn't experience it like this because they started out with Ruta and Ruta is quite lame by comparison, but to me, it was a moment unlike any other. |
I mean, I pretty much agree with you on the first paragraph.
I really, really didn't like the shrine system, because it turned an adventure into what felt like busy work. There were mini-dungeons in Wind Waker as well, but because we weren't spammed with them in that game, it felt like you were actually discovering something. Those dungeons weren't even remarkable, but because they were scattered across this vast world, finding one felt like something.
I don't like the DBs either, but I'm not really as passionate about that; they're just worse puzzle dungeons to me. I really really don't like the advent of puzzles in the Zelda series, so that's a personal grip, but what's more egregious to me is that something I really liked about dungeons in earlier Zelda's was that you had to find them. I really don't like, then, that the DBs had so much build up when preferably the task would be to pick up clues in the overworld to find where the dungeons were in the first place. I also felt like a lot of the set up was to mask the transition into the dungeons, because the most interesting facet of the DBs were that they were moving beings in the overworld. It bummed my out when I realized that this was purely aesthetic choice; there's no mechanical reason the DBs couldn't have been regular dungeons. I was imagining SotC on steroids, but just got set dressing. Last, and maybe this comes from my adoration for Zeldas 1+2, but I really disliked the lack of focus on combat in the DBs. I have a lot to criticize about the combat and difficulty in BotW because I think it's completely botched in favor of the player, but even then the DBs were far and away the easiest parts of the game. I don't know; maybe it's because of the way I look as games now, but the DBs felt incredibly "game-y" in a way that most of the game didn't. What I mean by that is that the artifice of the whole thing shone brightly in those dungeons. They felt so obviously built for a player to have fun in with cute little brain teasers which were sure not to take too much of your time because you've got other things to do.
I really liked the 3 Labyrinths scattered in the overworld though, and honestly would have preferred dungeons be more like that. I'm sure that's mind-numbing to some, but I don't think there is a single section in any 3D Zelda that captured what I liked about the dungeons in the original Zelda like those Labyrinths did. Not that that's actually what I want from Zelda dungeons, because I still want verticality and a distinct sense of place, but if one of those dungeons was the first of many dungeons on BotW, I'd have been much happier with the end result. Everything about them is great though.
1. You really just stumble upon them (and actually I think I remember some NPCs hinting to some)
2. They appear unassuming and are placed in interesting sections of the map
3. They're mazes which means there's a sense of anxiety that builds naturally as you can get very lost and the architecture lends itself to being crept on by enemies
4. While the enemies aren't more difficult than enemies elsewhere (except for the nasty one with the guardians), the way that they're layed out provides a satisfying challenge considering what is being worked with
5. The areas are prepared for the eventuality that every player with a brain will try to cheese the game and climb the top of the maze, making them way more mechanically interesting
6. The music and aesthetics of the mazes augment the feelings of anxiety that I miss from older dungeons, because they really do sound and look like unwelcoming, claustrophobic places that you don't want to be in anymore
Each labyrinth was intimidating as hell when you first walked into it. Everyone knows what a maze is, so walking up to one like that seamlessly, coming to terms with the scale, knowing as soon as you stepped foot inside that this wasn't going to be easy - that's a valuable experience to me. Every DB felt like beating them was an eventuality, while the Labyrinths (idk why I keep capitalizing that) really felt like there's a chance you might not. The scale was overwhelming in a real, tangible way, because there were no loading screens to mute it. Really, all that was missing from these were boss fights.
Wow, I genuinely didn't realize how much I loved the Labyrinths in this game until just now lmao - thanks and sorry for that. 😂
The DBs are more interesting in concept than in practice for me. Like even among 3D Zelda dungeons, I think they're the least interesting mechanically. I don't dislike any of the music in the game, so like yeah, the music works for what it does, but I still prefer dungeons that induce anxiety to dungeons that induce mysticism or beauty sonically. I didn't struggle with any of the bosses, but that's really a criticism of the mechanics more than a criticism of the boss design, though aesthetically they are train wrecks. But with better designs and mechanics that don't suck the player off, I'd probably find them much more enjoyable than I actually did.
Rocketjay8 said:
You know I do find it odd that people claim OoT to be the greatest game of all time yet it can't be criticised by people who didn't grow up with said game. |
I did grow up with OoT, btw. It's one of the first games I ever played. I may have been been "too young" to understand at the time, but I was also incredibly impressionable. So yeah. Just wanted to throw that out there because I didn't think it was relevant to dismantling that post.
mZuzek said:
So, you're actually saying the Water Temple was always a pretty good dungeon hindered behind clunky mechanics. Of course, this is true. Iron Boots in N64 were an absolute pain, but the dungeon itself was always great. |
Water Temple is probably my favorite 3D Zelda dungeon. Hell, it's one of my favorite dungeons in Zelda - period. I do think it was crap in OG OoT, but it really was due to exterior factors.
captain carot said:
I honestly got bored of how Zelda did it's dungeons over time. A Link to the Past was great back in the early nineties. OoT took that same recipe and put it into a 3D environment, but after that nothing happened anymore. Everything worked the same way over and over again. That's also one reason i like OoT way more than TP for example. Not the only one though.
The basic concept that BotW used for shrines, and not only shrines, is great, i think. I would have preferred bigger and lesser though. I'd also love those 'dungeons' to be more organic, a part ofthe world instead bein apart of the world.
And i disagree on remakes of games like Super Metroid. It doesn't need a remake, but if it got one, it could work quite well.
I'd honestly prefer Nintendo to do a new 2D Metroid though. |
Not much point addressing the dungeon thing at this point, but I think Super Metroid especially would be demonstrably worse if remade. Not just because of the culture that is developing these games now, but because there really is not much to change. The game plays perfectly. It's levels are designed perfectly. Unlike many games of its era, it's not obtuse - like you can still beat it without a guide. It still looks good, to the point where I genuinely think it would look worse in 3D. I even think it might look worse with drawn art, unless it had a HUGE budget and painstaking measures were taken to make sure it didn't deviate from the concept art of the original game. I don't even think a remake with new pixel art would look better because any change in style or tone or pallet would ruin it. I think the best remake of Super would be a remaster that barely touched the visuals and didn't touch the mechanics what-so-ever. I used to think one improvement would be a second-screen map, but even that is something I think would make the game worse, because it would move your focus from the world to the map.
I think there are little things that could be tweaked and updated with maybe Earthbound, but even that runs the risk of someone "updating" the dialog, or "fixing" sections that don't need to be fixed like the hunger or homesick mechanics. Meanwhile OoT's Water Temple is broken and the game looks ugly. The remake fixed bad things about the game without tampering with its integrity. There isn't much to be done there with the games I mentioned. Even Earthbound's sprite work would be something I debate on if it should be messed with. The original work is distinct, and the only valid substitute imo would be 3D art that replicates the "clay/toy" promotion art. Some games just don't need to be touched.
