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Forums - Gaming - Theory/Prediction: Sony is about to reveal a Portable PS4

 

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A hybrid PS4 could bring limited short and middle term benefits, as it would come when PS4 exclusively home user base is already large , and it would deny the novelty benefit to a possible hybrid PS5.
Moreover, even with a die shrink, the architecture used in PS4 APU is a lot less efficient than what will be available for PS5, and considering that during mobile use, disabling some optional OS services, only the CPU cores should work almost at their full power to give the same gameplay, while GPU cores could work at a greatly lower power or even be turned off while proper mobile ones would do their job instead, it's quite likely that a hybrid PS5 would be more viable and easier to design and produce than a PS4 one.
Also, without recompiling, every game using a graphics engine with a scalability range not large enough, or simply set to not offer such range even if the engine offered it in theory, probably couldn't run in portable mode in the worst case, or in less serious cases they could use too much power, making battery autonomy very unsatisfactory.
BTW, also on PS5, a hybrid version will be not only possible, but also viable, only if PS5 won't be released too early, as even considering current Jaguar cores are quite lightweight, only CPU cores using AMD architectures planned for late 2020 or later will be powerful enough even in mobile versions (or in mobile mode in hybrid APUs) to offer a performance leap from Jaguar large enough for a new generation of consoles. Luckily this latter problem will happen only once, when a new console will offer a hybrid version for the first time, as for the first time a lower CPU power consumption will be required too since the start, but from then on the successive console generations will greatly benefit from fast mobile CPU development, this could help balancing out the difficulties that are predicted to increase performances further as silicon tech gets closer to its physical limits at least for a while, although producers won't have to sit idle, but they'll have to use this extra time to plan a smoother transition to new techs.
Last but not least, if Sony and MS too will include a hybrid, this will slow down for the next generation switch the growth of resource requirements, and this could help many mid and small-sized SW houses currently struggling with fast dev costs growth to catch up with it.



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Pemalite said:
potato_hamster said:

Care to explain why Nintendo went with a modified Tegra 1 instead of a Tegra 2 variant in the Switch?

Same reason why they chose the technically inferior (Older+Slower) chips in the Wii and Wii U probably?
I cannot ascertain why Nintendo chose the chips it did, but I can tell you that it wasn't the latest and greatest of chips on release.

It's also not a modified Tegra 1.

It's a plain jane Tegra X1. The die shot between the Switch's SoC and the Tegra X1 was identical.

potato_hamster said:

Care to break down how much say a Vega. or Pascal / Ryzen based APU would cost compared to the current cost of the PS4's APU?

That is entirely dependent on yields, size of chip, how high they clock, how much voltages they push through.
Obviously I am not the person who is fabricating and packaging these chips, thus I am unable to give any quantifiable cost numbers empirically.

With that in mind, you only need to take a look at the current Ryzen APU's on the market to get an idea of costings.

potato_hamster said:

Care to mention how much "4x 18650's" cost vs the Switch's battery, how the size of the batteries compare, and if these 18650s require any additional shielding or protection circuitry to prevent portable PS4 portables from maiming their users if something goes awry?

The packs I have built... Probably about $20 tops.
And the packs I have built have 72x 18650's, you do need a BMS and so on, but when you are working with only a few cells it doesn't need to be overtly complex or expensive.

But I should also state that current devices like the Switch already have a BMS and Battery... So it's not going to be a real increase in cost on that front.

potato_hamster said:

No one's really questioning whether the technology is there. There's $1200 laptops less than an inch thick with X86 processors, and AMD GPU solutions that will eat the PS4's lunch and go dead within an hour. No one is disputing that. But now we need to make such technology less than half the size, less than half the price, and double the battery life. So please, sort out the feasibility of making such a solution less than say, $400.

The thing with Laptops however is that OEM's like to have their profit margins, because they are a business who is trying to make their cash off these devices alone.
Console manufacturers tend to go with lower/non-existent profit margins and make up for it with software.
Then you have bulk-purchasing.

In short... Looking at a laptop and the hardware it may/may not have is not representative of the potential of a gaming handheld.

There is also a significant increase in "baggage" in a laptop compared to something like a tablet... Like the software stack, you don't need a $50-$100 Windows OS on the Playstation 4 Portable do you?

zorg1000 said:

Is there a reason why you are ignoring price? The person you responded to has repeatedly made it clear they arent just talking about whether or not such a device is possible but also if it can be released at a reasonable price.

Possibly because I can only go by what is happening in the general marketplace?

Besides... This entire thread is speaking in hypotheticals, which is why my stance is: You cannot gauge the pricing of a Playstation 4 Portable, but certain aspects (Battery and so on) can be improved over the Switch for minimal cost by looking at what is available on the Market.

I mean Shit. Even nVidia has better Tegra SoC's than the Switch and had them even when the Switch release.




It appears Nintendo chose the Tegra 1 over cost. Supposedly nVidia gave them a sweetheart of a deal on them. I suspect the Wii and Wii U also had their power plants chosen over cost.

I gotta say your response doesn't make much sense to me. The PS4 slim has a power draw of 165 watts. The new 14 nm Ryzen APUs have a power draw of 40-65 Watts. The switch uses 11 Watts when docked, 7-9 when undocked, and even then it's battery life is considered barely acceptable by even some of the most die hard Nintendo fans.

So how do we bridge that gap ? Sure we can use superior battery technology that is able to feed something like a 65W APU for 3 hours, but remember this thing is a handheld and needs a themal managemt solution that's probably going to be an inch thick or less. Maybe instead we go with a smaller chip with a lower power consumption, but then we have to start discussing the cost of shrinking such an APU down to a point where it has a more managable power draw, if its even possible.

It just seems to me that you're grossly oversimplifying your approach to this, and glossing over the fair criticisms that people are bringing up.



No point atm. PS4 is killing it. Why mess with a formula that is working so perfect for the atm.

Not everything needs t be portable lol



 

 

Cobretti2 said:
No point atm. PS4 is killing it. Why mess with a formula that is working so perfect for the atm.

Not everything needs t be portable lol

Depends where you are from, though. Console gaming is on a sharp decline in Japan, and I'm sure Sony is well aware that the future of console gaming is uncertain.

Here's what I'd like to see happen:

In recent years game development has streamlined so much that developers are making games and releasing them on all platforms without much hassle. A part of me feels as though game "generations" will be a thing of the past, and we will instead begin seeing consoles that receive yearly or bi-yearly upgrades that allow reverse compatibility up to a certain point. Sort of like what Apple does.

Sony could release the PS5, but instead of calling it a PS5, it could be a "reboot" of sorts, where it's just simply known as a PlayStation again. The following year they could release a more powerful PlayStation that games could take advantage of. At some point Sony would be able to create a portable version that trails a few years behind in terms of power, but still plays the same games.

I haven't given this a whole lot of thought, but in short, console manufacturers could begin creating their consoles such that they will be reverse compatible with everything before them, thus not alienating an existing user base.



potato_hamster said:

It appears Nintendo chose the Tegra 1 over cost. Supposedly nVidia gave them a sweetheart of a deal on them. I suspect the Wii and Wii U also had their power plants chosen over cost.

Indeed. Cost may have been a factor. But they still could have opted for a Pascal powered chip for a minimal cost.

As for the Wii and Wii U, cost would have been a massive factor in the decision to opt for those chips.


potato_hamster said:


I gotta say your response doesn't make much sense to me. The PS4 slim has a power draw of 165 watts. The new 14 nm Ryzen APUs have a power draw of 40-65 Watts. The switch uses 11 Watts when docked, 7-9 when undocked, and even then it's battery life is considered barely acceptable by even some of the most die hard Nintendo fans.

The Ryzen APU's go lower than 40w.
You are making the mistake of looking at the desktop chips and thinking that is a representation of a Ryzen implementation in other form factors, it's not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_(microarchitecture)#Mobile_APUs

The power reduction can be taken even farther than that too.

potato_hamster said:


So how do we bridge that gap ? Sure we can use superior battery technology that is able to feed something like a 65W APU for 3 hours, but remember this thing is a handheld and needs a themal managemt solution that's probably going to be an inch thick or less. Maybe instead we go with a smaller chip with a lower power consumption, but then we have to start discussing the cost of shrinking such an APU down to a point where it has a more managable power draw, if its even possible.

I'm not suggesting to use a chip with a high power consumption or to shrink it.

potato_hamster said:

It just seems to me that you're grossly oversimplifying your approach to this, and glossing over the fair criticisms that people are bringing up.

False I have asked people to do their research.


 




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Pemalite said:
potato_hamster said:

It appears Nintendo chose the Tegra 1 over cost. Supposedly nVidia gave them a sweetheart of a deal on them. I suspect the Wii and Wii U also had their power plants chosen over cost.

Indeed. Cost may have been a factor. But they still could have opted for a Pascal powered chip for a minimal cost.

How do you know the price difference would have been minimal?

Where are all those smartphones and tablets with a superior Pascal-SoC? With a competitive price, size and TDP there should exist some products in small form factors by now. 



Conina said:
Pemalite said:

Indeed. Cost may have been a factor. But they still could have opted for a Pascal powered chip for a minimal cost.

How do you know the price difference would have been minimal?

Where are all those smartphones and tablets with a superior Pascal-SoC? With a competitive price, size and TDP there should exist some products in small form factors by now. 

How do I know? Because architecturally it's not a massive overhaul from Tegra X1. But it does clock higher, it is built on a better fabrication process and does have a couple of extra tricks like enhanced delta colour compression.

As for why Smartphones and Tablets don't use the "superior" Pascal Soc? Well. To be blunt... No one uses nVidia anymore in the Tablet/Smartphone space anymore anyway.
It's very much dominated by Qualcomm... With vertically integrated manufacturers opting for their own solutions like Apple with it's AX line, Samsung with Exynos, Huawei with Kirin... And then you have the likes of Allwinner, Mediatek and Rockchip bringing up the budget rear.

In short... nVidia exited the Phone market entirely as the profit margins and design wins just weren't happening... And has served the declining tablet market with older, outdated designs.
Thus they refocused there efforts on more specialized markets such as Cars, IoT and so on.




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Pemalite said:
Conina said:

How do you know the price difference would have been minimal?

Where are all those smartphones and tablets with a superior Pascal-SoC? With a competitive price, size and TDP there should exist some products in small form factors by now. 

How do I know? Because architecturally it's not a massive overhaul from Tegra X1. But it does clock higher, it is built on a better fabrication process and does have a couple of extra tricks like enhanced delta colour compression.

As for why Smartphones and Tablets don't use the "superior" Pascal Soc? Well. To be blunt... No one uses nVidia anymore in the Tablet/Smartphone space anymore anyway.
It's very much dominated by Qualcomm... With vertically integrated manufacturers opting for their own solutions like Apple with it's AX line, Samsung with Exynos, Huawei with Kirin... And then you have the likes of Allwinner, Mediatek and Rockchip bringing up the budget rear.

"Not a massive overhaul" doesn't mean that the price is similar. As you say yourself, Tegra X1 wasn't/isn't very popular for smartphones and tablets. So Nvidia was very interested to get a buyers for these SoCs to clear their stock. They probably made Nintendo a good deal for the TX1-SoCs.   

Pemalite said:

In short... nVidia exited the Phone market entirely as the profit margins and design wins just weren't happening... And has served the declining tablet market with older, outdated designs.
Thus they refocused there efforts on more specialized markets such as Cars, IoT and so on.

Yeah, they refocused their Tegra efforts on the much more profitable specialized car market. Car manufacturers don't have any problems to pay much higher prices for these SoCs... they multiply these costs for their customers anyways and make lots of profits from these "extras".

If Nintendo had said in 2015 (when they were planning the Switch) or in 2016 (when they were manufacturing the Switch) "We want the Tegra X2 instead of the Tegra X1", Nvidias first answer would have been "We are not offering the TX2 for these small form factors, they go in cars and we have more than enough orders for them." If Nintendo insisted, the second answer would have been: "Sure, if you pay as much for them as the car manufacturers. But for the Tegra X1 we can make you a much better price."

Again, you have no proof whatsoever that the price difference for Nintendo would only have been "minimal".



I find it hard to believe that a portable PS4 would even have a competitive price point against a $300 Switch. Plus what would I do with all my physical games? If the console is a bit too big, then it would be a bit inconvenient.



I really hope not



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