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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

the question is not fundamental to this discussion in anyway

you are asking it to justify your implying that i'm a liar before, which was in turn done to hand wave my argument away

 

isn't it funny how in this post you have now decided to completely ignore my argument entirely? isn't that telling? 

I do not wish to debate someone who does not believe the things that they are saying. All you need to do is tell me that you truly believe that we live in a rape culture and I will gladly continue this conversation. Without it, what is the point? If you don't believe the things you are saying, what is gained from arguing against them?

And I never called you a liar. I said that you were wielding opinions that you don't believe as a tool in seeking to expose some great hypocrisy of leftist belief.

" I said that you were wielding opinions that you don't believe as a tool in seeking to expose some great hypocrisy of leftist belief."

isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to call rolstoppable a leftist? furthermore to presume that i am not a leftist?

 

"Without it, what is the point?"

i presented an argument that so far you have been unable to contend with, that's the point of discussion

its not about the beliefs anyone has but about whether arguments hold up to scrutiny or not

i have presented evidence backed by statistics that forwards the argument that we do live in a rape culture, that's the argument



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the-pi-guy said:
contestgamer said:

Show me a culture where women aren't raped or harassed more than men, at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minangkabau_people

4.2 million people.  

https://shareok.org/bitstream/handle/11244/1308/3291941.PDF?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

"“The Minangkabau social philosophy teaches that aggression weakens rather than strengthens the body’s tie to nature and society. This explains why there is no discernible incidence of sexual abuse of domestic violence in the village of my field work"

Well they've overcome human nature with hard work.



the-pi-guy said:
contestgamer said:

Issue is we're calling this "rape culture", when it's really just part of human nature. If it wasn't it wouldn't be prevalent across various culturally  disparate societies. "Street harassment" is really a modern day, first world problem where cat calling is now an impetus for laws banning it in western countries. 

If it's a part of human nature, why are there cultures that don't have these issues?

you mean the hunter gatherer tribes that shame/shamed men who attempt to compete or demonstrate their individuality in anyway that might conflict with the interests of the group?

i always find it interesting when people bring those groups up because of how supposedly egalitarian they are without acknowledging that fact that they achieve that by beating the individuality out of their members

i suppose lowering everyone down to the lowest common denominator is ok for some once you can have "equality"

 

the people of tribes like that would probably have stoned steve jobs for being "different"



contestgamer said:
o_O.Q said:

are you saying that rape and sexual harassment are natural?

Has it been a common occurrence of all cultures throughout human history? Does it pervade virtually all mammalian species? It's more common than being gay and we call that natural. Natural doesn't equal right, but it means it is a part of the human fabric. Otherwise it would be rare. Murder is also part of human nature, but obviously should be punished. It's not an issue of "culture" it's an issue of people needing to keep their ancient ingrained dark sides in check. 

Physical harassment and rape you need to stomp out, because you can't have a society where people can hurt one another without repercussions. However so called street harassment, which most people on the left use for "cat calling" is not a real problem, unless it becomes physical or legitimately threatening. 

My uncle once got reprimanded by a woman for opening and holding the door open for her - apparently that was sexist. So this street harassment BS about cat calling being a criminal action now needs to stop and real crimes like rape and physical harassment needs to be punished. Unfortunately it's being taken less serious now due to minor infractions now being blown out of proportion. 

"Physical harassment and rape you need to stomp out"

we haven't yet in our society so how would you suggest we do so?



o_O.Q said:

" I said that you were wielding opinions that you don't believe as a tool in seeking to expose some great hypocrisy of leftist belief."

isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to call rolstoppable a leftist? furthermore to presume that i am not a leftist?

 

"Without it, what is the point?"

i presented an argument that so far you have been unable to contend with, that's the point of discussion

its not about the beliefs anyone has but about whether arguments hold up to scrutiny or not

i have presented evidence backed by statistics that forwards the argument that we do live in a rape culture, that's the argument

I think the fact that you refuse to acknowledge whether or not you truly believe the opinions you are espousing is quite telling. You have had five opportunities to say "yes, I believe we live in a rape culture" and simply end this comment thread, but you have attempted to weasel your way out of answering every time.

As such I can only assume that you do not believe these opinions or you are being needlessly stubborn. Both of which are grounds for me to determine that further discussion of this topic with you is a fruitless endeavor that will get us nowhere. As your first response to me was a criticism of the assumptions I've made, I find this rather strange that you are willing to criticize me for making assumptions but refuse to answer whether those assumptions were correct.

I have made it clear that I would not continue this discussion unless you answer a simple question. You have not answered, and as such, I will not continue this discussion. If you decide to answer the question, I will gladly pick up this conversation where we left off. Until then, good day.



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the-pi-guy said:
contestgamer said:

Well they've overcome human nature with hard work.

Cultures and the values that societies have, greatly impacts how they view things.  

Just consider how society has changed by what's considered inappropriate.  Women used to dress much more conservatively, and over time they've gotten more freedom to dress how they want.  

There's tons of studies about how society affects people.  In many ways, their changing culture has as much of an impact on human society as their nature does.  

o_O.Q said:

you mean the hunter gatherer tribes that shame/shamed men who attempt to compete or demonstrate their individuality in anyway that might conflict with the interests of the group?

i always find it interesting when people bring those groups up because of how supposedly egalitarian they are without acknowledging that fact that they achieve that by beating the individuality out of their members

i suppose lowering everyone down to the lowest common denominator is ok for some once you can have "equality"

Yeah, the cool hunter/gatherer groups that have cars and projectors.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minangkabau_people

this article is about the people you posted about

https://www.thedailybeast.com/indonesias-minangkabau-the-worlds-largest-matrilineal-society

"Abdullah said. In daily life women and men occupy roles that to Western eyes smack of inequality—women rule the domestic roost while men hold all positions of political and religious leadership."

 

...yeah, funny how the more things change the more they stay the same



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

" I said that you were wielding opinions that you don't believe as a tool in seeking to expose some great hypocrisy of leftist belief."

isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to call rolstoppable a leftist? furthermore to presume that i am not a leftist?

 

"Without it, what is the point?"

i presented an argument that so far you have been unable to contend with, that's the point of discussion

its not about the beliefs anyone has but about whether arguments hold up to scrutiny or not

i have presented evidence backed by statistics that forwards the argument that we do live in a rape culture, that's the argument

I think the fact that you refuse to acknowledge whether or not you truly believe the opinions you are espousing is quite telling. You have had five opportunities to say "yes, I believe we live in a rape culture" and simply end this comment thread, but you have attempted to weasel your way out of answering every time.

As such I can only assume that you do not believe these opinions or you are being needlessly stubborn. Both of which are grounds for me to determine that further discussion of this topic with you is a fruitless endeavor that will get us nowhere. As your first response to me was a criticism of the assumptions I've made, I find this rather strange that you are willing to criticize me for making assumptions but refuse to answer whether those assumptions were correct.

I have made it clear that I would not continue this discussion unless you answer a simple question. You have not answered, and as such, I will not continue this discussion. If you decide to answer the question, I will gladly pick up this conversation where we left off. Until then, good day.

 

isn't it funny how you have shifted from attempting to address my argument at all to questioning whether i am sincere or not?

is this because you can't address the argument?

regardless it is up to you whether you want to continue obviously, but i stated already that i was offended by your implication that i am insincere originally, which is why i did not answer because i believe that you'd just continue repeating the idea that i'm lying



o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

I think the fact that you refuse to acknowledge whether or not you truly believe the opinions you are espousing is quite telling. You have had five opportunities to say "yes, I believe we live in a rape culture" and simply end this comment thread, but you have attempted to weasel your way out of answering every time.

As such I can only assume that you do not believe these opinions or you are being needlessly stubborn. Both of which are grounds for me to determine that further discussion of this topic with you is a fruitless endeavor that will get us nowhere. As your first response to me was a criticism of the assumptions I've made, I find this rather strange that you are willing to criticize me for making assumptions but refuse to answer whether those assumptions were correct.

I have made it clear that I would not continue this discussion unless you answer a simple question. You have not answered, and as such, I will not continue this discussion. If you decide to answer the question, I will gladly pick up this conversation where we left off. Until then, good day.

 

isn't it funny how you have shifted from attempting to address my argument at all to questioning whether i am sincere or not?

is this because you can't address the argument?

regardless it is up to you whether you want to continue obviously, but i stated already that i was offended by your implication that i am insincere originally, which is why i did not answer because i believe that you'd just continue repeating the idea that i'm lying

OK, if you won't answer him maybe you'll answer me. Do you believe there is a rape culture in the west?



How does rape culture relate to the topic at hand?



numberwang said:

How does rape culture relate to the topic at hand?

It doesn't, I think more than half the comments in the thread have nothing to do with the OP.