By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Delaware students can now choose their own race (Yes, RACE!) under new regulations.

Aeolus451 said:
CosmicSex said:

Hey can you state you case in one small paragraph.  A lot of times these sources send us down tangents that muddy our point and create more confusion.  Can you state your definition of race?  I have heard like 5 definitions... which to me is just proof that people need the right to define themselves ....but I digress.

Geographical race.

Okay I think this is self evident.   I think the best way to understand this is that life adapts to its surrounding and environment actually effects our genetics.  They was a video that once postulated that in the deep future if we colonize different planets, over millions of years we will actually see many different (actual biological)  races of human out there.



Around the Network
MDMAlliance said:

Actually, it's not that it CAN'T exist for humans.  It's simply that it doesn't.  

Assuming you've actually read the paper, you'd know that it actually argues against your point.

Right here at the end:

A final complication arises when racial classifications are used as proxies for geographic ancestry. Although many concepts of race are correlated with geographic ancestry, the two are not interchangeable, and relying on racial classifications will reduce predictive power still further.

The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population. Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes.

@Bold This line is all needed to support my assertion that certain "populations" can be defined ...



fatslob-:O said:
MDMAlliance said:

Actually, it's not that it CAN'T exist for humans.  It's simply that it doesn't.  

Assuming you've actually read the paper, you'd know that it actually argues against your point.

Right here at the end:

A final complication arises when racial classifications are used as proxies for geographic ancestry. Although many concepts of race are correlated with geographic ancestry, the two are not interchangeable, and relying on racial classifications will reduce predictive power still further.

The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population. Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes.

@Bold This line is all needed to support my assertion that certain "populations" can be defined ...

Are you reading that line wrong?  "Most human genetic VARIATION is found within populations" meaning that there's more variation within the populations.  The point of that line is to state that despite the fact of those variations, it's possible to trace ancestry to locations with enough data.  That's not really all that surprising.



MDMAlliance said:
CosmicSex said:

You can't get banned.You didn't actaully post anything.  After accusing him for doing what you then do yourself, you give two statements.  One says that some people think that race is a social construct  (It is of course) followed by a common sense assessment that says that we still have to be aware that people have genetic differences.  No shit.

 

Then you completely destroy that argument by saying that indeed race is a social construct,  and we know this by studying genetics.

 

You Sum Posted Nothing.  Why Would You get Banned?

I'm not doing what he does, if you're assuming I'm cherry picking data.  You don't really find much that says that biological race is a real thing.  It's very easy to find the piles of data that support what I've been saying.  I only supplied one source since really it should be enough when the opposing side hasn't provided a single scientific source that actually supports their thesis. 

If you're assuming I was arguing that race doesn't exist as a social construct either, then that's incorrect.  It certainly does.  

It's kind of hard to understand quite what you were trying to tell me.   

The reason I was saying I could get banned is because of the way I phrased it.

Look.  We don't have enough difference among us to be different biological races. I think that's where your argument falls through.  We can all have sex with any colored person and you are only mixing minor genetic details. You still produce a kid and that child isn't another biological race.  The fact that we can all cross breed would defeat the purpose of this entire thread... oh wait.



sundin13 said:
Aeolus451 said:

Geographical race.

There is virtually nothing in the way of criteria to naturally delineate the borders between geographical races. Definitions are vague and lacking a true taxonomic backbone allowing classification. As such, it seems like depending on who you ask, there may be three geographical races or nine geographical races or any amount in between.

This lends it the appearance of an artificial distinction, or in other words, a social construct.

A social construct is basically something made up and people just go by it. Geographical race just describes something tangible that exists regardless of the name or belief in it.

Humans have existed and lived on different continents, they adapted to their separate environments resulting in geographical races with biological differences. Again, races have different health issues and advantages from each other. Meds affect certain races differently on average. That doesn't sound like a social construct to me.

Geographical raceA distinct population that is isolated in a particular area from other populations of a species,[9] and consistently distinguishable from the others,[9] e.g. morphology (or even only genetically[3]). Geographic races are allopatric.[7]

Around the Network
CosmicSex said:
MDMAlliance said:

I'm not doing what he does, if you're assuming I'm cherry picking data.  You don't really find much that says that biological race is a real thing.  It's very easy to find the piles of data that support what I've been saying.  I only supplied one source since really it should be enough when the opposing side hasn't provided a single scientific source that actually supports their thesis. 

If you're assuming I was arguing that race doesn't exist as a social construct either, then that's incorrect.  It certainly does.  

It's kind of hard to understand quite what you were trying to tell me.   

The reason I was saying I could get banned is because of the way I phrased it.

Look.  We don't have enough difference among us to be different biological races. I think that's where your argument falls through.  We can all have sex with any colored person and you are only mixing minor genetic details. You still produce a kid and that child isn't another biological race.  The fact that we can all cross breed would defeat the purpose of this entire thread... oh wait.

I think you and him are agreeing, haha. Don't know for sure because i'm just lurking this thread but it seems that's the case ... 



MDMAlliance said:

Are you reading that line wrong?  "Most human genetic VARIATION is found within populations" meaning that there's more variation within the populations.  The point of that line is to state that despite the fact of those variations, it's possible to trace ancestry to locations with enough data.  That's not really all that surprising.

Nope, the fact that we can track geographic "populations" means that there is a biological basis for race ... 

If race is to be defined with respect to allele frequencies in combination to the geographic population then race DOES exist!



fatslob-:O said:
MDMAlliance said:

Are you reading that line wrong?  "Most human genetic VARIATION is found within populations" meaning that there's more variation within the populations.  The point of that line is to state that despite the fact of those variations, it's possible to trace ancestry to locations with enough data.  That's not really all that surprising.

Nope, the fact that we can track geographic "populations" means that there is a biological basis for race ... 

If race is to be defined with respect to allele frequencies in combination to the geographic population then race DOES exist!

If I didn't know any better, I'd suspect you're trolling me.



CosmicSex said:
Aeolus451 said:

Geographical race.

Okay I think this is self evident.   I think the best way to understand this is that life adapts to its surrounding and environment actually effects our genetics.  They was a video that once postulated that in the deep future if we colonize different planets, over millions of years we will actually see many different (actual biological)  races of human out there.

That's a geographic race. Over time it can become a biologically different race. I'm using the science definitions.



CosmicSex said:
MDMAlliance said:

I'm not doing what he does, if you're assuming I'm cherry picking data.  You don't really find much that says that biological race is a real thing.  It's very easy to find the piles of data that support what I've been saying.  I only supplied one source since really it should be enough when the opposing side hasn't provided a single scientific source that actually supports their thesis. 

If you're assuming I was arguing that race doesn't exist as a social construct either, then that's incorrect.  It certainly does.  

It's kind of hard to understand quite what you were trying to tell me.   

The reason I was saying I could get banned is because of the way I phrased it.

Look.  We don't have enough difference among us to be different biological races. I think that's where your argument falls through.  We can all have sex with any colored person and you are only mixing minor genetic details. You still produce a kid and that child isn't another biological race.  The fact that we can all cross breed would defeat the purpose of this entire thread... oh wait.

I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say here.  My argument is that humans do not have a biological race.  The only race that humans have are made up, a social construct.