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Forums - Politics - The Russian Debate

McDonaldsGuy on 12 February 2018

Also, is everyone forgetting the UK Parliament literally held a debate about the possibility of banning a potential American President?

The German, British, Canadian, etc. etc. media influenced the election a zillion times more than Russia did.



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McDonaldsGuy on 12 February 2018
ArnoldRimmer said:

I find that whole "Russia tried to influence the POTUS election!" completetly ridiculous.

Did the russian government prefer one POTUS candidate? Probably. And maybe they really tried to influence the POTUS election in order to improve the chances of their preferred candidate to win.

This was in 2012:

VLADIVOSTOK, Russia — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia sauntered into American presidential politics on Thursday, praising President Obama as “a very honest man” and chastising the Republican nominee, Mitt Romney, for describing Russia as “without question our No. 1 geopolitical foe.”
- The New York Times September 2012 archive.is/IsUS9

Putin literally said he favored Obama over Romney and NY Times said Putin was "sauntering into American presidential politics."

In 2012, Democrats were basically saying Russia was our BFFs.



Goatseye on 12 February 2018
McDonaldsGuy said:
ArnoldRimmer said:

I find that whole "Russia tried to influence the POTUS election!" completetly ridiculous.

Did the russian government prefer one POTUS candidate? Probably. And maybe they really tried to influence the POTUS election in order to improve the chances of their preferred candidate to win.

This was in 2012:

VLADIVOSTOK, Russia — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia sauntered into American presidential politics on Thursday, praising President Obama as “a very honest man” and chastising the Republican nominee, Mitt Romney, for describing Russia as “without question our No. 1 geopolitical foe.”
- The New York Times September 2012 archive.is/IsUS9

Putin literally said he favored Obama over Romney and NY Times said Putin was "sauntering into American presidential politics."

In 2012, Democrats were basically saying Russia was our BFFs.

That was before we knew about Russia were preparing to weaponize fake news to discredit democratic institutions in the US.
Before using Wikileaks was used as an arm of the GRU to mine US relationship with their allies.
Before Magnistky Act was passed to squeeze Putin's pals money laundering schemes.



Goatseye on 12 February 2018

Trump was being groomed by ex-KGB and Russian Oligarchs/Mafia for decades.
After US banks denied his fraud ass, he turned to shady deals with foreign investors in real state, with Deutsche Bank's blessing.
There's a reason why Mueller filled his team with forensic accountants.



AsGryffynn on 12 February 2018
VGPolyglot said:
StarOcean said:

I’d only show it to actual people. 

It’s a country that values religion over science and education. For a 3rd world country like them to easily hit the US is so stupid considering the US is supposed to be so advanced. The US should have ended them when it had the chance as soon as the Cold War ended. 

What do you mean by ended them? The Soviet Union collapsed and disintegrated into 15 different states and Russia lost its sphere of influence, what more did you want them to do?

To be fair, it lasted ten years before they reabsorbed their backyard and found suitable replacements for Eastern Europe and unlike Poland or Romania, they were mostly self sufficient lackeys. 

Not to mention that addressing Russia as a Third World country is... unfitting... to say the least. Up until the crisis that slashed the value of their currency, the only metric by which Russia could be classified as a third world country was their stunted export industry. Russia is, for all purposes, as educated and technologically advanced as Western Europe. They are just very inward looking, and naturally, this means their economy is that big unless you look inside and notice that some of the stuff that they charge 5 dollars for would sell, at the same quality, for twenty in the US. 

Also, you don't poke the animal that will easily smite everyone and their sister in an all out war with an stick. Animals actually do more than just barking, they bite. 

StarOcean said:
LurkerJ said:

You just intelligently stated that the dems and the reps are the same, and you are mostly right with that. I just don't get why Hillary, or any other political supporter, isn't receiving the same amount of hate from you.

The escalation with Russia was happening before Trump got elected, the deep state is finishing what they started, albeit with a different narrative from the one that would've been used if Hillary won. Lies have used before to escalate and invade foreign countries before, why is it so unbelievable to you that the Russian narrative is used as a tool to achieve similar goals?

As Kyle stated, there is enough evidence pointing to Trump colluding with Saudi Arabia, why isn't that being used against him? Because impeaching Trump or catching him red-handed is NOT the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is to keep this ridiculous Russian narrative going until the time is right to escalate to more than just accusations and sanctions.

She didn’t win. So it’s not an issue. Trump, let me be clear, in theory -is not bad. However, the grave error was believing he was different. It was clear from the get-go he wasnt. In fact he’s an idiot sellout that goes for who praises him most. A Democratic-Republican dream. He’ll do all their bidding for the agenda all the while the Dem/Reps can go “Oh that’s not good.” -I guarantee you that when a Dem takes office, all of the policies they protest will not be changed because it IS what they want. The Dems want the wall and the Reps want war, they only do it to trick those who havent caught on that they’re the same.  

We already know how rotten the bipartisan system is. 

ArnoldRimmer said:

I find that whole "Russia tried to influence the POTUS election!" completetly ridiculous.

Did the russian government prefer one POTUS candidate? Probably. And maybe they really tried to influence the POTUS election in order to improve the chances of their preferred candidate to win.

Pretty much every government tries to influence elections in other countries in some way; if these governments point their fingers at russia now, they're nothing but the worst hypocrites. Germany for example clearly tried to influence the Brexit voting, they tried to influence the POTUS election (for example by giving 5 million dollars to Clinton's infamous "pay-to-play" foundation right during the POTUS election, or by producing Anti-Trump and Pro-Clinton articles and publishing them via the german government-controlled international media etc.).
Governments are constantly trying to influence the affairs of other countries to their liking, sometimes more, sometimes less successful.

And the US itself probably has the worst record of meddling with foreign elections of them all; in 1996 for example they were successful at making their preferred candidate Boris Yeltsin president of Russia. The TIME magazine even proudly admitted that back then:
http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1996/1101960715_400.jpg

So Russia trying to influence foreign elections is quite probable, simply because every country does so. And yet, the "proof" they've presented so far is ridiculously harmless:

For example some facebook ads worth a few tenthousand bucks. Not only is that virtually nothing; it got even more ridiculous when they had to admit that hardly any of these ads advocated a specific POTUS candidate, and that the majority of these ads were published AFTER the POTUS election - which makes perfectly clear that the purpose of these ads wasn't even to influence the POTUS election, for it makes no sense to publish such ads after the election had already taken place.

I completely agree with what someone has written on the first thread page: If the "right" candidate had won (Clinton), there would never even have been any reporting on this.
If I remember correctly, someone working on the Clinton campaign meanwhile even admitted that the whole "Russia rigged the election" narrative was invented after Clinton lost, simply because they needed a scapegoat to place the blame on.

It's all a pretense for conflict. Republicans want it since they need it to justify military budget hikes and General Electric and Lockheed Martin sign their paychecks. The Dems were just looking for an scapegoat to blame for their candidate loosing and Russia was the easy way out since the Russians did like Trump more... 

As I said, the average American should have thanked Russia. Instead, they spit on their face just because it showed them their ugly side... 

Goatseye said:
McDonaldsGuy said:

This was in 2012:

VLADIVOSTOK, Russia — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia sauntered into American presidential politics on Thursday, praising President Obama as “a very honest man” and chastising the Republican nominee, Mitt Romney, for describing Russia as “without question our No. 1 geopolitical foe.”
- The New York Times September 2012 archive.is/IsUS9

Putin literally said he favored Obama over Romney and NY Times said Putin was "sauntering into American presidential politics."

In 2012, Democrats were basically saying Russia was our BFFs.

That was before we knew about Russia were preparing to weaponize fake news to discredit democratic institutions in the US.
Before using Wikileaks was used as an arm of the GRU to mine US relationship with their allies.
Before Magnistky Act was passed to squeeze Putin's pals money laundering schemes.

After the US already weaponized them by using anti communist propaganda against an ordoliberal government in Guatemala? Or perhaps after pressing Bolivia not to elect Evo? 

Also, the US had discredited itself when you invaded Granada under the pretext of being a security threat. Even lose cannon Margaret Thatcher chewed you out for that one. 

It's time like this I wish the Supreme Court outlawed the Republican and Democratic party from the next elections... 



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AsGryffynn on 12 February 2018
Goatseye said:
Trump was being groomed by ex-KGB and Russian Oligarchs/Mafia for decades.
After US banks denied his fraud ass, he turned to shady deals with foreign investors in real state, with Deutsche Bank's blessing.
There's a reason why Mueller filled his team with forensic accountants.

Breaking: Millionaires resort to shady deals with shady people. More at eleven... 



McDonaldsGuy on 12 February 2018
Goatseye said:

That was before we knew about Russia were preparing to weaponize fake news to discredit democratic institutions in the US.
Before using Wikileaks was used as an arm of the GRU to mine US relationship with their allies.
Before Magnistky Act was passed to squeeze Putin's pals money laundering schemes.

Just so you know, Obama didn't want to sign the Magnistky Act and when he did (2 years later) he threw a hissy fit.

Clinton literally wrote an OpEd on why signing it was a bad idea.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/05/15/the-magnitsky-flip-flop/

I bet you had no idea about any of that. It's the same with Iraq WMDs - you're being lied to. When will you wake the hell up?

Where is the proof Russia hacked the DNC? Robert Mueller said Iraq had WMDs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FWSnMNt0bM



McDonaldsGuy on 12 February 2018
Goatseye said:
Trump was being groomed by ex-KGB and Russian Oligarchs/Mafia for decades.
After US banks denied his fraud ass, he turned to shady deals with foreign investors in real state, with Deutsche Bank's blessing.
There's a reason why Mueller filled his team with forensic accountants.

Trump tried to run for President in 1988 and 2012.

If he would've won in any of those years, would he have been a Russian stooge?



Goatseye on 12 February 2018
McDonaldsGuy said:
Goatseye said:
Trump was being groomed by ex-KGB and Russian Oligarchs/Mafia for decades.
After US banks denied his fraud ass, he turned to shady deals with foreign investors in real state, with Deutsche Bank's blessing.
There's a reason why Mueller filled his team with forensic accountants.

Trump tried to run for President in 1988 and 2012.

If he would've won in any of those years, would he have been a Russian stooge?

He would have to pay back what he owed, like he is to China now. Russia next.



Goatseye on 12 February 2018
AsGryffynn said:

Goatseye said:

That was before we knew about Russia were preparing to weaponize fake news to discredit democratic institutions in the US.
Before using Wikileaks was used as an arm of the GRU to mine US relationship with their allies.
Before Magnistky Act was passed to squeeze Putin's pals money laundering schemes.

After the US already weaponized them by using anti communist propaganda against an ordoliberal government in Guatemala? Or perhaps after pressing Bolivia not to elect Evo? 

Also, the US had discredited itself when you invaded Granada under the pretext of being a security threat. Even lose cannon Margaret Thatcher chewed you out for that one. 

It's time like this I wish the Supreme Court outlawed the Republican and Democratic party from the next elections... 

Your whole argument is non sequitur and actually validates the fight of Americans against foreign intervention on political affairs. 
Try again...