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Why are we still here? Just to suffer?



 

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I believe that "existence" is impossible to define. That the concept of existence, along with some closely related concepts like truth and being, are so fundamental to our very capacity of thought that trying to define them is like trying to get your hand to grasp itself or trying to carry yourself in your own arms.

OhNoYouDont said:

The Cogito was taken to task by many philosophers but the most thorough shellacking came from Friedrich Nietzsche in Beyond Good & Evil. There are intrinsic assumptions which were exposed quite fantastically in that work. The short version is that the Cogito fails fantastically to establish existence of self.

Your question seems less about existence and more about the resolution of the Platonism / Nominalism debate.

https://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl

Whether or not abstract things exist is at the epicenter of that debate. Do numbers exist? Do shapes exist? Do bizarre creatures concocted by one's imagination exist?

I find that religious folks tend to side with Platonism; that numbers and imagined things exist. 

Personally, that's ridiculous. Of course numbers do not exist, shapes do not exist. These are merely abstract constructs of one's mind. No more real than the boogeyman who stalks the dreams of children. It's electrical-chemical phenomenon of our brains. To say that something exists is to say that it is real, or to say that it is part of reality but our imaginations represent the imaginary or non-real. The position seems entirely bankrupt to me.

I think the issue Platonists have is thinking that properties are the same as objects. Objects have properties. An objects has properties such as shape, size, color, texture, yet Platonists think shapes are objects. That is their folly. An object can be [insert shape] but an object cannot be an [insert shape] because shapes don't exist. Objects which are circular exist, but circles do not exist. You cannot walk into the woods and pluck a circle from the weeds.

There is ample philosophy about this already and I think I've said enough to clarify my position. This forum is probably the worst place for this type of discussion. I attempted to describe the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic to somebody over several posts on another thread and the user failed miserably at comprehending this elementary distinction. I recommend reading actual philosophy (which I admit can be mentally exhausting) if you wish to further your own understanding of this debate.

Existence and Reality are essentially the same thing. Saying that to exist is to be real explains absolutely nothing because you still haven't explained what it means to be real.

Also, Platonists don't believe that properties (or rather, Forms) are the same as objects. Platonism is a form of Idealism, meaning that it outright denies the reality of objects, or at least holds objects to be less "real" than the Forms they're "based on".



Slarvax said:
VGPolyglot said:

Hmm, so is it a moving ball, or a static ball? Or is it in infinite ball? If so, is it really a ball?

That's complicated, but no, it's not literally a "ball"

The universe is expanding, which makes no sense. But (to keep it in line with my last analogy), think of it like a balloon. A balloon that never explodes (as far as we know). 

One thing that I'm curious about is what happens if you manage to reach the edge of the universe and keep going forward. It's physically impossible, since you would need to travel faster than the speed of light, but what if? According to Stephen Hawking (or what I understood from him, at least), you would just keep going around. Like the Earth, it doesn't have edges, so if you keep moving forward you would just keep going around the Earth.

Another problem is dimensions. Where is up or down in space? What is forward? The universe doesn't have a center (because every point works like a center. As in, if we say the Earth is the center, then the expansion started from the Earth. But some science stuff (radiation or something) proved that everywhere in the universe can be "the center")

But anyway, I'm looking at this in the scientific way! We exist for no reason and all at the same time. If we want to give ourselves significance, we will, but ultimately we don't have to. The universe will keep expanding, stars will die, civilizations will rise, regardless there being a reason.

... Why do you assume that the universe has an edge, or that it is finite, in any way?

 

Why do you think that  we need a center, up, down or forward?

 

Just imagine an infinite plane of little balls that repel each other.

Last edited by palou - on 10 February 2018

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Shadow8 said:
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?

Yes we are.



Paperboy_J said:
We're here, so it's reasonable to assume there's a reason for it. It annoys me so much when people say, "I can't see God therefore he doesn't exist." You don't have to SEE everything with your own eyes to put 2 and 2 together. When you see an airplane flying above you, do you assume there's no pilot just because you can't see him from your current perspective?

No, you automatically KNOW there's a pilot because without a pilot, the plane could not fly.

I know plenty of atheists, and I've never heard one say "I can't see god, therefore he doesn't exist".  I've never heard that, except as a strawman argument.

What I have seen many atheists say is that they don't believe in god, because there is no evidence.

Ignoring for the moment that plans actually can fly without pilots (they're called drones), we have experience with planes.  We have likely seen planes before, or read about them.  In all the accounts we've seen or heard, there has always been a pilot.  We can further ask airlines how they operate, read legal documents, contracts, and so on so forth.  We can learn about the design of aircrafts from their inception to the current day and would discover a need for pilots.  We can talk to some pilots, meet them, discuss their craft with them.  We can visit a pilot school.  We can try and become pilots if we so choose.  We have a huge body of evidence to support the idea that planes need pilots.

When it comes to a universe creating being, we have no such evidence.  We have no other universes to compare this one too.  We have no idea what a god created universe would look like vs a non-god created universe.  We know little to nothing about the mechanisms by which a universe can be created, or even if universes can be created, so we have no idea whether a being is or could be involved.  We have no evidence to suggest god can or does exist, and until we do, there is no good reason to believe that it does.



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palou said:
Slarvax said:

That's complicated, but no, it's not literally a "ball"

The universe is expanding, which makes no sense. But (to keep it in line with my last analogy), think of it like a balloon. A balloon that never explodes (as far as we know). 

One thing that I'm curious about is what happens if you manage to reach the edge of the universe and keep going forward. It's physically impossible, since you would need to travel faster than the speed of light, but what if? According to Stephen Hawking (or what I understood from him, at least), you would just keep going around. Like the Earth, it doesn't have edges, so if you keep moving forward you would just keep going around the Earth.

Another problem is dimensions. Where is up or down in space? What is forward? The universe doesn't have a center (because every point works like a center. As in, if we say the Earth is the center, then the expansion started from the Earth. But some science stuff (radiation or something) proved that everywhere in the universe can be "the center")

But anyway, I'm looking at this in the scientific way! We exist for no reason and all at the same time. If we want to give ourselves significance, we will, but ultimately we don't have to. The universe will keep expanding, stars will die, civilizations will rise, regardless there being a reason.

... Why do you assume that the universe has an edge, or that it is finite, in any way?

Why do you think that  we need a center, up, down or forward?

Just imagine an infinite plane of little balls that repel each other.

I'm curious. If you travel faster than light, and reach a point in the universe where you can see the expansion happening, what would it look like?

The universe is finite. As finite as something infinitely expanding can be maybe the expansion will slow down, and contract in billions of years, but that's unlikely.



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Slarvax said:

I'm curious. If you travel faster than light, and reach a point in the universe where you can see the expansion happening, what would it look like?

The universe is finite. As finite as something infinitely expanding can be maybe the expansion will slow down, and contract in billions of years, but that's unlikely.

The universe is finite

... where did you get that from?

 

 



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VGPolyglot said:
Shadow8 said:
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?

Yes we are.

No we're not...



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palou said:
VGPolyglot said:

Yes we are.

No we're not...

Death is eternal peace, no worries, no troubles.



VGPolyglot said:
palou said:

No we're not...

Death is eternal peace, no worries, no troubles.

No joy, satisfaction, no freedom, no opportunity!

 

Worries, trouble are only testimony of what we can value in life. Death amounts to the simultaneous loss of everything.

 

Peace is a state of mind we may have, death is the undeniable end of it.



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