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Forums - Politics Discussion - What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

sc94597 said:
DonFerrari said:

There is nothing preventing the workers to unite and make their cooperatives and whatnot, usually they fail.

Except you know the lack of capital and large-scale poverty of the workers due to the monopolization of land, high rents, low wages, etc all of which are caused by state violence.

Er...high rents and low wages are caused by state violence?

Forgive my skepticism, but I'd be curious to hear the logic behind that assertion.



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Matsku said:
Leadified said:

Sure,the anarchists in Catalonia were running their democratic experiment during the Spanish Civil War. The Soviet Union got it's name from the elected soviets that only lasted a short while before the Supreme Soviet continued to centralize power. Practically every socialist regime has attempted at least in the beginning some form of democracy.

Did those systems fail? Yes but that is irrelevant. Capitalism started off in the absolute monarchies of Europe and it took hundreds of years before capitalism in a representative democracy became the norm and even longer until citizens had universal rights.

Maybe a have to refraise my comment name a socialist country that was a democracy for a longer period of time and had better human rights than for example the Nordic countries.

I don't quite understand the purpose of these leading questions because successful revolutions so far have only happened in developing countries.



VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:

Do you need examples from people that were homeless or waiters and became billionaire to evidence that capacity and planning can be made without having millions prior to the business?

And considering the owner themselves get 5-30% of the capital invested on the company then the sum of the wages of all the employees would make it possible for they to collect together and start their business if they had the prowess?

The truth is people prefer to be tended to and decisions made to them, so they rather have a salary to count on than to provide to themselves and risk.

Do you know what survivor-ship bias is? Just seeing that a very small number of people have succeeded ignores all the failures. If you saw the number of homeless people that became billionaires as you say, how many others have tried and failed?

Many have tried and failed, the point of showing that even homeless have achieved billion dollars worth is to point out that what make the workers not entrepreneurs isn't the lack of money. There are a lot of well paid employees that prefer to work for someone for a "certainty" of revenue than to open their own business and take the risk.

Leadified said:
DonFerrari said:

I didn't say I believe it to be the end of history, but I'm pretty certain socialism and any other system that try to be anti-natural will work.

Then there is no irony. The fedualists said the same thing about capitalism, there was heavy resistance to rationalism in Europe and the church and aristocrats feared the bourgeoisie. Certain extreme reactionary ideologies such as fascism continue to preach about how unnatural capitalism is and how it has lead to the degeneration of man. 

You are a funny person. So please enlighten me on what society, animal or anything do socialism works as promised and when did you see humans in majority willing to work all for the same result independent of the work done... several independent trials of socialism have gone wrong due to the accommodation and exploration of laid back individuals.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
VGPolyglot said:

Do you know what survivor-ship bias is? Just seeing that a very small number of people have succeeded ignores all the failures. If you saw the number of homeless people that became billionaires as you say, how many others have tried and failed?

Many have tried and failed, the point of showing that even homeless have achieved billion dollars worth is to point out that what make the workers not entrepreneurs isn't the lack of money. There are a lot of well paid employees that prefer to work for someone for a "certainty" of revenue than to open their own business and take the risk.

OK. I will now take you up on your offer, show me examples of homeless people becoming billionaires so we can see exactly what the circumstances were.



VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:

Many have tried and failed, the point of showing that even homeless have achieved billion dollars worth is to point out that what make the workers not entrepreneurs isn't the lack of money. There are a lot of well paid employees that prefer to work for someone for a "certainty" of revenue than to open their own business and take the risk.

OK. I will now take you up on your offer, show me examples of homeless people becoming billionaires so we can see exactly what the circumstances were.

https://exame.abril.com.br/pme/empresario-que-ja-dormiu-na-rua-hoje-fatura-r-4-bi/

And I'll give you even more

www.meusucesso.com

Almost all its case are based on people that came from nowhere to revenue multimillions.

The originator of the idea is a guy that not knowing how to speak English but selling it for some time (and having a good wage at the time) opened a school without any money using the "cheque especial" (that in Brazil cost about 14-30% interest per month) to finance the first 2 months of operation.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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Leadified said:
Matsku said:

Maybe a have to refraise my comment name a socialist country that was a democracy for a longer period of time and had better human rights than for example the Nordic countries.

I don't quite understand the purpose of these leading questions because successful revolutions so far have only happened in developing countries.

My point with these questions were to point out that capitalist countries have had longer democracies and better human rights than Socialist countries. In no way do I think that pure capitalism is a good thing. Governments need to have strict rules and regulation on what companies can do and also they have to support the poor and I do think governments should provide services for their citizens.



DonFerrari said:
VGPolyglot said:

OK. I will now take you up on your offer, show me examples of homeless people becoming billionaires so we can see exactly what the circumstances were.

https://exame.abril.com.br/pme/empresario-que-ja-dormiu-na-rua-hoje-fatura-r-4-bi/

And I'll give you even more

www.meusucesso.com

Almost all its case are based on people that came from nowhere to revenue multimillions.

The originator of the idea is a guy that not knowing how to speak English but selling it for some time (and having a good wage at the time) opened a school without any money using the "cheque especial" (that in Brazil cost about 14-30% interest per month) to finance the first 2 months of operation.

I am not fluent in Portuguese, so I only have limited understanding of what those articles say. But you say right there "having a good wage at the time", so wouldn't that mean that he needed money to finance it?



DonFerrari said:
Leadified said:

Then there is no irony. The fedualists said the same thing about capitalism, there was heavy resistance to rationalism in Europe and the church and aristocrats feared the bourgeoisie. Certain extreme reactionary ideologies such as fascism continue to preach about how unnatural capitalism is and how it has lead to the degeneration of man. 

You are a funny person. So please enlighten me on what society, animal or anything do socialism works as promised and when did you see humans in majority willing to work all for the same result independent of the work done... several independent trials of socialism have gone wrong due to the accommodation and exploration of laid back individuals.

Right, this is why the Soviet Union managed to become one of the most powerful countries in the world in the span of a few decades, because people just sat back and relaxed. How people believe these myths about "laid back individuals" is beyond me. Will you also blame "socialism" when automation will inevitably wipe out millions of jobs and force people to live off a basic wage from the government?

Last edited by Leadified - on 29 January 2018

Matsku said:
Leadified said:

I don't quite understand the purpose of these leading questions because successful revolutions so far have only happened in developing countries.

My point with these questions were to point out that capitalist countries have had longer democracies and better human rights than Socialist countries. In no way do I think that pure capitalism is a good thing. Governments need to have strict rules and regulation on what companies can do and also they have to support the poor and I do think governments should provide services for their citizens.

It's not comparable since capitalism has been around for much longer and socialism has only existed so far in developing countries. The material conditions are different which is also why capitalism in a country like America functions differently in a country like Liberia even though they both operate under a capitalist mode of production.

Social democracy so far has been a compromise used to satisfy the thirst for revolution in Western countries and despite the flaws of the system, there has been some successes like better working conditions in developed nations, universal healthcare and education and so on. The issue is here, how long can this system survive as long as the contradictions of capitalism exist. Perhaps it will only be 5 years, or 10, or 50 or 100 who knows.

Socialism is less about being an ideology but the next step in development, just like capitalism over feudalism, according to historical materialism. Perhaps this is wrong and we'll live in a system that is controlled by an overseeing AI that completely changes the mode of development, we won't know for sure until it happens.



VGPolyglot said:
DonFerrari said:

https://exame.abril.com.br/pme/empresario-que-ja-dormiu-na-rua-hoje-fatura-r-4-bi/

And I'll give you even more

www.meusucesso.com

Almost all its case are based on people that came from nowhere to revenue multimillions.

The originator of the idea is a guy that not knowing how to speak English but selling it for some time (and having a good wage at the time) opened a school without any money using the "cheque especial" (that in Brazil cost about 14-30% interest per month) to finance the first 2 months of operation.

I am not fluent in Portuguese, so I only have limited understanding of what those articles say. But you say right there "having a good wage at the time", so wouldn't that mean that he needed money to finance it?

Nope, he didn't had any money to finance it (talking about the creator of mysucesso.com) he took an indirect loan on the bank. Like he took something like 10k USD that he would have to pay back the next month 12k USD for the principal and interest.

The other one, the homeless, didn't had any money at all.

There is another that started as a waitress on a road barbecue parlor. He and his brother (while living in poverty at their families house) saved up to 90% of their income for several months/years to rent their first space and start their barbecue who would become "Fogo de Chão".

There is also famous Silvio Santos who started as low middle class family, buying things from the wholesale and selling on the ferryboat and today is the owner of the second biggest TV in Brazil and several other business.

In fact it's possible that the rate of self made man turned billionarie isn't that much of than milionaries who turned off billionaires...

Want another sneak peek? There is one study showing that the average income from families that came as recent immigrants to be higher than americans... which show that even people that came without money and even understanding english were developing faster... this wikipedia have at least somewhat a way for you to start looking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

 

The biggest issue with socialism and communism is their fight to end inequality instead of poverty... Capitalism have fought poverty greatly while also increasing inequalities in some places.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."