Yes I know how bank make money. He didn't make a loan that is the point you didn't understand. He just entered the red on his own account paying obscene interest on it. He didn't picked a lot of money as well.

He couldn't pay back the 10k USD, if his business didn't really take off in 2 month he would go bankrupt totally. For you to have an idea he had to take the debt because his partner dropped from the risk on the week prior to it, he had to sell his old car. So unless we are talking about homeless that have nothing on them (which in developed countries case is the very very very minority of the population) basically no one can say they can't start a business because they don't have money. They may not have the courage, knowledge, insight, etc, but money per see isn't the biggest detrigent. Such is a fact that in Brazil most business are very small and with very little capital.

On the immigration that could be the case today, but those studies show things like 3 generations so it is like accounting immigrants that came 50 years ago and how their grandson are doing.

How asking if you are a ludist is an ad hominem? I asked that because they believed automation would destroy works, instead it just shifted how work was done and in fact raised everyone earnings and quality of life in the long term.

You deflected my question by asking if I am a Luddite which is absurd. Do you not read the news or anything? Automation is increasingly becoming a topic of debate and universal basic income (which is provided by the government) is often justified because the economy will become more automated in future. So please answer my original question.

How much money would he have to have in order to be allowed to go 10k in the hole? I can only go $100 in the hole, no way would my bank let me be over $10,000 in the red. And you say that he would have gone bankrupt, do you know what causes bankruptcy? A lack of money. So, the choice between not starting a company and not having a company or starting a company and going bankrupt and thus not having money doesn't seem like 2 very favourable choices.

Also, I didn't deny that it was counting grandchildren of immigrants, but the financial status of your parents have a huge affect on your own financial status:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/10/18/poor-kids-who-do-everything-right-dont-do-better-than-rich-kids-who-do-everything-wrong/?utm_term=.8af9876b9f32

Yes I read newspaper, still the fear of automation is ever lingering and there are doomongering over it all the time. Doesn't make it likely to happen

If you earn 5k per month in Brazil you can have your account be allowed to go to the whole. And not even sure why we are considering this amount unnacessible to most. That is the price of a entry level car in Brazil, which you may not believe most of the population own.

Sure it isn't a good choice to go bankrupt, and most people avoid risk. This one accepted a very high risk and it paid off fast. Today he is multibillionaire. He could have gone slower and safer but he would lose his window of opportunity (he had found the right place and signed the rent before his friend backed off).

Yes the money of your parents can influenciate yours, but those are son and grandson of poor immigrants so their parents made it from ground. This was just to point against your assumption that the study was counting immigrants that come with a lot of money or opportunities.

I'll give you another pill of Flavio Augusto knowledge... when you put the blame on the system or others there is nothing you can do and you will only suffer. But when you believe you have the power to decide your future (and responsibilities for your failures) then you can go and do.

Also not sure how much you deal with workers, but majority I've seem aren't not only risk adverse but also such stability lovers and complacent that they get stuck on their positions like forever.

One thing I never understood is if the workers own the means of production (means which they neither created, built up, invested in, or researched) and enjoy in the profits if the business is successful, do they have to take money out of their own pockets if the business is failing?

A successful business takes years to develop, a ton of time, money, talent, and good choices. Why should workers who invested nothing get the benefits of others success.

And who decides if that business should invest in new things if every worker has an equal share or what if I leave the job for another, does my replacement get my share and I'll get the share of the new job?

Maybe I'm starting from a faulty premise, I'm not trying to mislead, but it seems like socialism is only desirable for people to lazy or to unwilling to go out there and achieve their own success.

Well ok then.

The most important thing in this discussion is make people believe or accept that all prior failed attepmts such ad ussr, north korea, cuba, venezuela etc were not actually socialist. Therefore they cannot be used as examples of failure which opens the opportunity to convince people to try it again. This time as real socialism. This time I guarantee will work. If fail we find some excuse or blame america.

There is one very good study to dismerit the "mais valia" or the exploitation the employer do to the employee... it actually put it as the employer pay the employees before hand, buy the material and make all the investment and the profit is actually the remuneration of the money invest correct to present time.

Dont even need to read the article to know it is a joke and left media propaganda. But I will just say is misinformation. MST are closer to terrorists than any worker movement. Paid and financed by the former socialist government (ruled by a terrorist president)  with money from the tax I pay.

This is incorrect.

Anarchists and other socialists often do not consider the USSR, Maoist China, Cuba, etc. to be socialist while Maoists, Marxist-Leninists, Leninists will consider those states at some points to be socialist. Only American liberals will look up to Venezuela as socialism.