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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

JakDaSnack said:
Aura7541 said:

Accusing someone of exaggerating the truth to push an agenda is ad hominem because that does not address the argument. You are attacking the character of that arguer instead. As a result, your claim that I am making several untrue accusations actually fits your description "exaggerating the truth to push an agenda" better than when you leveled at accusation at thismeintiel.

You also misconstrue dissent as attacks on you. As a result, your claims that you've been disrespectful also falls short since if you actually have been respectful, then you would not have made the false equivalence of disagreement as "being constantly attacked".

So how about you try this again? Present your argument, provide your evidence in forms of links (so no "Wikipedia said so". You have to link the original sources), and we go from there.

He nor I believe that was an attack on his character.  It was just being cocky.  You did make untrue statements, I did respond to his sequel argument, you just missed it.  And I did not intentionally attack his character.  I didn’t misconstrue anything.  I know the difference between a disagreement and an attack.  When someone begins to stalk me and openly mocks my intelligence, that is an attack.  

I have a phone, linking is near impossible.  It’s why I said Wikipedia, because the site I was actually looking at I was struggling to link, so I just said Wikipedia because it was easier than trying to type the name of the actual site.  I didn’t care because no one that I replied to linked their evidence either, so I figured nobody cared, but that was before you showed up.

Whether he took it well doesn't change the fact that you still resorted to ad hom and hand-waving is as being cocky doesn't really help you either. Make your points and leave it there. And while you insist that you are not misconstruing anything, you continue to do so with lofty claims of being stalked and having your intelligence openly mocked. If that was the case, then you should have reported those posts for the mod team to handle the behavior. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but it seems that you want to take your word for it without any further question. No thanks.

I also have a phone and linking is not near impossible. You are being grossly hyperbolic as I can simply tap the superscript and then tap the link to the original source. Plus, you can also mention the source by name, such as Box Office Mojo (or BOM), and other people can google it to verify themselves. The fact that you didn't do either of those things calls into question if "nobody" really "cared".

So are you going to continue to make excuses or will you actually prove me wrong by restarting the conversation by showing your points and backing them up? Here's your perfect chance.



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I really don't agree with the hate this one is getting. It is easily the best Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back. It is the ONLY good Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back. It is the first Star Wars movie to really delve into the ideas that the series has always presented but never examinened. It goes into the concept of the force, it questions the moral compas of its characters.
It flushes the fan-service crap of The Force Awakens and it superficial, predictable ideas down the toilet and focuses on building something new.
Take Rey, she was a boring character in The Force Awakens, without any facets to her. In The Last Jedi she is suddenly a character who doesn't know her place in the universe, she is searching for an identity and is mirrored into Kylo Ren in a very interesting way.

Luke Skywalker who was a rather boring character in the original trilogy, is now a conflicted old man, who sees the flaws of the ideas he previously celebrated. He understands the force better in this movie than any other character ever did.

The movie rips apart the whole hero myth the series has always build on. The reckless heroism that Poe and Finn represents is no longer celebrated, but shown as useless.

Finally a Star Wars movie that doesn't sell itself on the superfial 'lore', but actually comes with something new. It is a very flawed movie indeed, multiple plot holes, unbelievable scenes, a somewhat messy structure, a tempo that doesn't allow the movie to breathe, a few truly uninspired scenes.
But I can forgive that when the movie has some interesting ideas and some truly beautiful scenes of action and character development.



Aura7541 said:
JakDaSnack said:

He nor I believe that was an attack on his character.  It was just being cocky.  You did make untrue statements, I did respond to his sequel argument, you just missed it.  And I did not intentionally attack his character.  I didn’t misconstrue anything.  I know the difference between a disagreement and an attack.  When someone begins to stalk me and openly mocks my intelligence, that is an attack.  

I have a phone, linking is near impossible.  It’s why I said Wikipedia, because the site I was actually looking at I was struggling to link, so I just said Wikipedia because it was easier than trying to type the name of the actual site.  I didn’t care because no one that I replied to linked their evidence either, so I figured nobody cared, but that was before you showed up.

Whether he took it well doesn't change the fact that you still resorted to ad hom and hand-waving is as being cocky doesn't really help you either. Make your points and leave it there. And while you insist that you are not misconstruing anything, you continue to do so with lofty claims of being stalked and having your intelligence openly mocked. If that was the case, then you should have reported those posts for the mod team to handle the behavior. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but it seems that you want to take your word for it without any further question. No thanks.

I also have a phone and linking is not near impossible. You are being grossly hyperbolic as I can simply tap the superscript and then tap the link to the original source. Plus, you can also mention the source by name, such as Box Office Mojo (or BOM), and other people can google it to verify themselves. The fact that you didn't do either of those things calls into question if "nobody" really "cared".

So are you going to continue to make excuses or will you actually prove me wrong by restarting the conversation by showing your points and backing them up? Here's your perfect chance.

I’ll make this short and sweet.  I don’t report people because we are all human and have bad days.  The only reason I brought it up was because I felt threatened.  I’ll be careful next time not to use ad hom.  Next time I’ll just look at the name of the site.  Anyways that’s all I have to say on the matter.  if you’re gonna ban me then just do it.  



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JakDaSnack said:

I’ll make this short and sweet.  I don’t report people because we are all human and have bad days.  The only reason I brought it up was because I felt threatened.  I’ll be careful next time not to use ad hom.  Next time I’ll just look at the name of the site.  Anyways that’s all I have to say on the matter.  if you’re gonna ban me then just do it.  

Why would I ban you for mere disagreement? Lastly, if you feel threatened, then you absolutely should use the report button because being threatened isn't something to take lightly.



SuaveSocialist said:
thismeintiel said:

Bwahaha. Wikipedia? Without checking the source?BOM, which gets their data from companies reporting, has the real number. The one you're looking at probably includes all the countless re-releases it saw. I'm talking about its initial 18 month run, where it grossed $307.3M. ESB did $209.4M. And like I said, at 42 weeks ANH was above ESB by only $6M-$7M. So, yes, those extra weeks made a huge difference.

After that good laugh, you're right, this is over.

Speaking of re-releases...

Star Wars (Special Edition) : 580 Million     http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars4se.htm
Empire Strikes Back (Special Edition): 348 Million    http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars5se.htm
Return of the Jedi (Special Edition): 353 Million http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars6se.htm

All three were released the same year, so playing The Inflation Game makes less sense than usual.

They all had about the same time in theaters (Hope had a three-week advantage over Empire, Return had a one-week handicap to Empire), so playing the Theatrical Run Card is self-defeating.  Especially since they were originally planned to have equal playtime, only for Hope and Empire to be kept longer due to their unexpected success.

Home video players had pretty much identical levels of ownership from Jan-April (1997), rendering The Format Argument pointless.

There aren't many places left for you to Move The Goalposts.  All things being equal, Empire made only 60% as Hope, despite it having long since been recognized as the best of the Saga.

Assuming similar performance trends with Episodes 7, 8, 9, TLJ would only be expected to bring in around 1.242 Billion and it's on pace to top that.

Got links to prove those initial run lengths?

Edit: Wait. You're talking about the Special Editions? Why are you even bringing them up in a discussion about the initial runs? Definitely seems like you're reaching for straws.

The fact is that in the US ESB was down ~32%, though WW ESB was down by ~26%.  You can't take out of context that the movie industry was changing and ESB was stuck in the middle. Yes, it was near the beginning of that change, hence ESB having much larger opening numbers than, but still made most of its money after Week 5 (most new movies make the vast majority of their money by Week 3) and got a shorter initial run than ANH. 

All the reasons ESB was down (and I still believe it would have been down slightly, like ~10%, if it was like for like) don't apply to TLJ. It's going to be down massively, more like 35%-40%, because it failed to live up to expectations. Or even be a good film. 

NightlyPoe said: 
I'm still waiting for the original poster to admit that the 68% drop was a result of the calendar and not fan backlash as he claimed.

Don't hold your breath. I don't make it a habit to lie to myself. Especially when the evidence is smacking me in the face. 

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 04 January 2018

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thismeintiel said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Speaking of re-releases...

Star Wars (Special Edition) : 580 Million     http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars4se.htm
Empire Strikes Back (Special Edition): 348 Million    http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars5se.htm
Return of the Jedi (Special Edition): 353 Million http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars6se.htm

All three were released the same year, so playing The Inflation Game makes less sense than usual.

They all had about the same time in theaters (Hope had a three-week advantage over Empire, Return had a one-week handicap to Empire), so playing the Theatrical Run Card is self-defeating.  Especially since they were originally planned to have equal playtime, only for Hope and Empire to be kept longer due to their unexpected success.

Home video players had pretty much identical levels of ownership from Jan-April (1997), rendering The Format Argument pointless.

There aren't many places left for you to Move The Goalposts.  All things being equal, Empire made only 60% as Hope, despite it having long since been recognized as the best of the Saga.

Assuming similar performance trends with Episodes 7, 8, 9, TLJ would only be expected to bring in around 1.242 Billion and it's on pace to top that.

Got links to prove those initial run lengths?

It's in the links. Look at the "weekly" tab.



Simpleton said:
thismeintiel said:

Got links to prove those initial run lengths?

It's in the links. Look at the "weekly" tab.

Read the edit.

Edit: He's also not reading that right. ANH SE made $138.3M in the US. ESB made $67.6M.  ROTJ made $45.5M.  WW ANH SE made $256.9M WW. ESB did $124.8M.  ROTJ did $89.3M.

Clearly looks to me that people were all excited about the new additions for the Special Editions, but after realizing how pointless they were, far fewer showed up.  The rejection of the SE is probably what led to Lucas hating the OG versions, vowing to never release them, again. 

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 05 January 2018

thismeintiel said:
Simpleton said:

It's in the links. Look at the "weekly" tab.

Read the edit.

Edit: He's also not reading that right. ANH SE made $138.3M in the US. ESB made $67.6M.  ROTJ made $45.5M.  WW ANH SE made $256.9M WW. ESB did $124.8M.  ROTJ did $89.3M.

Clearly looks to me that people were all excited about the new additions for the Special Editions, but after realizing how pointless they were, far fewer showed up. 

Before that edit I thought it was about the amount of weeks the special editions had. I can't say I know where he got the data for the initial runs from.



thismeintiel said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Speaking of re-releases...

Star Wars (Special Edition) : 580 Million     http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars4se.htm
Empire Strikes Back (Special Edition): 348 Million    http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars5se.htm
Return of the Jedi (Special Edition): 353 Million http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars6se.htm

All three were released the same year, so playing The Inflation Game makes less sense than usual.

They all had about the same time in theaters (Hope had a three-week advantage over Empire, Return had a one-week handicap to Empire), so playing the Theatrical Run Card is self-defeating.  Especially since they were originally planned to have equal playtime, only for Hope and Empire to be kept longer due to their unexpected success.

Home video players had pretty much identical levels of ownership from Jan-April (1997), rendering The Format Argument pointless.

There aren't many places left for you to Move The Goalposts.  All things being equal, Empire made only 60% as Hope, despite it having long since been recognized as the best of the Saga.

Assuming similar performance trends with Episodes 7, 8, 9, TLJ would only be expected to bring in around 1.242 Billion and it's on pace to top that.

1  Got links to prove those initial run lengths?

2Wait. You're talking about the Special Editions?

3 Why are you even bringing them up

4. in a discussion about the initial runs? 

5. Edit: He's also not reading that right. ANH SE made $138.3M in the US. ESB made $67.6M.  ROTJ made $45.5M.  WW ANH SE made $256.9M WW. ESB did $124.8M.  ROTJ did $89.3M.

Why, yes I do!
Star Wars (Special Edition): http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekly&id=starwars4se.htm

Empire Strikes Back (Special Edition): http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekly&id=starwars5se.htm

Return of the Jedi (Special Edition): http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekly&id=starwars6se.htm

2.  Why, yes!  I only mentioned it three times in my post that you replied to.

3. To show how Empire holds up in the box office in such a manner as to crush the failed excuses of "theatrical run" and "home video" that your OP mentions, plus the predictable-yet-irrelevant mutterings of "inflation-adjusted grossings" should you try to Move the Goalposts over there.

Turns out Empire could only muster 60% of Hope's box office might. 

4. The discussion isn't about initial runs.  The discussion is about how "The Fans Have Spoken" with respect to the box office (plus some rambling about Mary Sues for some reason, going by the content of the OP); I submit to you the title of this topic as evidence, so that attempt at Moving the Goalposts has failed.  Turns out the fans have spoken.  All things being equal, Empire fell far, far short of Hope, despite being widely considered  as the best.  TLJ is on pace to outperform it, despite conforming to the generations-long trend of the middle movie being the weakest in its trilogy.

If TLJ's performance disappoints you, so would Empire's by proxy.  Of course, the rational conclusion is that Star Wars movies have been behaving this way for at least 20 years and no one in the industry would be surprised by that.  Trying to spin the latest iteration of this generations-long pattern as a commercial failure is absolutely comical.  

EDIT 5. LOL! ESB brought in less than HALF of ANH using your numbers!  TLJ has already surpassed it!  How foolish I was to use numbers that presented Empire as strong enough to do 60% as well as its predecessor!  So much egg on my face!  LOL!


Last edited by SuaveSocialist - on 05 January 2018

SuaveSocialist said:
thismeintiel said:

1  Got links to prove those initial run lengths?

2Wait. You're talking about the Special Editions?

3 Why are you even bringing them up

4. in a discussion about the initial runs? 

5. Edit: He's also not reading that right. ANH SE made $138.3M in the US. ESB made $67.6M.  ROTJ made $45.5M.  WW ANH SE made $256.9M WW. ESB did $124.8M.  ROTJ did $89.3M.

Why, yes I do!
Star Wars (Special Edition): http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekly&id=starwars4se.htm

Empire Strikes Back (Special Edition): http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekly&id=starwars5se.htm

Return of the Jedi (Special Edition): http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekly&id=starwars6se.htm

2.  Why, yes!  I only mentioned it three times in my post that you replied to.

3. To show how Empire holds up in the box office in such a manner as to crush the failed excuses of "theatrical run" and "home video" that your OP mentions, plus the predictable-yet-irrelevant mutterings of "inflation-adjusted grossings" should you try to Move the Goalposts over there.

Turns out Empire could only muster 60% of Hope's box office might. 

4. The discussion isn't about initial runs.  The discussion is about how "The Fans Have Spoken" with respect to the box office (plus some rambling about Mary Sues for some reason, going by the content of the OP); I submit to you the title of this topic as evidence, so that attempt at Moving the Goalposts has failed.  Turns out the fans have spoken.  All things being equal, Empire fell far, far short of Hope, despite being widely considered  as the best.  TLJ is on pace to outperform it, despite conforming to the generations-long trend of the middle movie being the weakest in its trilogy.

If TLJ's performance disappoints you, so would Empire's by proxy.  Of course, the rational conclusion is that Star Wars movies have been behaving this way for at least 20 years and no one in the industry would be surprised by that.  Trying to spin the latest iteration of this generations-long pattern as a commercial failure is absolutely comical.  

EDIT 5. LOL! ESB brought in less than HALF of ANH using your numbers!  TLJ has already surpassed it!  How foolish I was to use numbers that presented Empire as strong enough to do 60% as well as its predecessor!  So much egg on my face!  LOL!


They only thing crushed is any delusion that your argument lacked desperation. I don't even have to argue my point, since you defeated your own by using something so weak as to bring up the Special Editions. Lol. Boy, these arguments keep getting weaker and weaker, and farther out, as that gap keeps on increasing.