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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

epicurean on 01 January 2018
mZuzek said:
DakonBlackblade said:

Thats not true at all, the movie have a very clear motiff, the young spuring on the elders and the elders teaching the young. Every single one of the 3 new protagonists make terrible decision because they ahven't listened to theier elders and they all fail their quests. However thei energy and impetus motivate the elders to never give up and in the end of the movie all 3 new protagonists have learned from the elders and have grown in some significant and evident way (Poe more so than anyone else). Are there conviniences and Ex machinas on the scrip, ye sure but I dare you to find one script ever that doesn't. Its highly unlikedly that Ep VIII will win awards for its script, but it has a very solid one, it does exactly what it set out to do and the character arcs all lead somewhere withitm the movie. 

No they don't lead anywhere. Poe's arc is pretty irrelevant because it only happens because the "elder" (Holdo) was being a complete dick pulling all sorts of nonsense. Rey's arc is useless as she doesn't learn anything at all, undergoes no training and still overcomes all challenges she needs to overcome easily. Finn and Rose's arc I'd rather not even get into, that was the worst thing ever. Leia's "arc" was basically doing nothing the whole movie. Snoke's arc was to die stupidly, and Kylo's arc was to redeem himself and join Rey, but then suddenly deny all the development he went through in the film's first half just to become a villain again (really feels like they just wanted an excuse to kill Snoke and keep Kylo as the main villain).

No one evolved in any meaningful way, no one underwent any real changes. The entirety of the character progression in the movie was to go from point A to half-way to point B, then just do a 180 and go straight back to point A. It was utter nonsense.

Yes, pretty much spot on.

What did Leia learn from any young people? She and Holdo did everything perfect (according to the film) and Poe basically ruined everything not once, but twice (they really wanted to hammer home how terrible he was, it seemed). Finn was trying to abandon everyone AGAIN if Rose hadn't "saved" him. Rey did things to help "save" Luke but he did nothing for her other than - wait - no, still nothing. 

If it seems like I'm saying all the female characters were perfect and the males were all idiots, well, that's just how the film went, I guess.



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Lucas-Rio on 01 January 2018

What have I just read?

The Last jedi, a very solid script? It's the most flawed script for a SW movie, by far, and one of the worst script I can recall from a movie I have seen, and I have seen plenty of movies. The lack of logic, the non sense happening left and right are everywhere. I can point out a lot of holes in this script, it has more holes than a good cheese.

The main plot is terrible and looks like a TV show: let's have one spaceship chasing another spaceship until it runs out of fuel.

That's in 2017, that's the main storyline of the last SW movie.



DakonBlackblade on 01 January 2018
epicurean said:

What did Rey learn from Luke (or anyone, really)? What terrible decision did she make? She was right about everything except Kylo turning, even though it could be argued he did turn to some degree. 

She played right into Snoke's hand, she walked into a trap and was overwhelmed by someone way more powerfull than her and was only saved cause Kylo used her to achieve his own goals. She learned what the force means, she saw what bad decisions can do to a person (in Luke) she learned from Luke the jedi had a lot of it wrong as well, and she has the resolve to actualy face Kylo and stop pretrending she can save everyone in the world in the end. Realy ppl the bias toward only seing what Rey does right is too much on this new trilogy.

And btw in the Kylo and Rey x Snoke's elite guard fight Rey is getting her behind handed to her in more than one ocasion and is shown to be struggling far more than Kylo.



thismeintiel on 01 January 2018
epicurean said:
DakonBlackblade said:

Saying that evidence of a backlash having any negative impact is that this movie sis not managing to do the same number sas the second greatest BO of all time and the bigest USA BO of all times is shortsighted ot say the least. TLJ will likely end in the 1.3 - 1.5 bil neighborhood, and thats considering it had none of the years of no Star Wars that ep VII had and that it is the second movie ina  trilogy, wich is historicaly always the worst performer out of a 3 parter.

Just stop, there sis not way to ingluence or to "buy" millions of critics from hundreds of different countrys. This bulshit conspiracy theoru has gone too far. Disney somehow always buy critics and yet Warner doesn't. Seriously ppl the answer here isn't some crazy scheme, it is the simple fact the movie is great. is it quite different from the usual Star Wars film ? Ye it definetly is. But all that aside, as a movie, evaluating solely what is being present on screen, it is a fantastic piece of cinema.

" millions of critics" - uhhhhh?

I just feel like we must have seen different movies. I don't want there to be conspiracies or anything, but that movie was really, really bad. Like I said, I've never had such a disconnect with critics before, and there seems to be a lot of other people who feel the same. I don't know what this "smear" campaign is you're talking about, other than people just really hated the movie.

I think if people were honest with themselves, and this movie was called Space Battles, people would look at it as a poor imitation of SW, but with a boring, drawn out plot that really leads nowhere. Sure it's pretty, but so are some of Michael Bay's films. That doesn't make them good/great.  But, because it's SW, some just feel the need to not just love it, instead of just thinking it's OK, but also completely ignore the major plot holes and plot points that amounted to nothing. And label anyone bringing up its flaws just a hater or fanboy (though that's the opposite of a fanboy), and when asked to address them, they just don't/can't. 

Also, the whole taking risks thing. What risks? Maybe risking pissing off a lot of the fanbase by trolling them, having things set up to mean something just turn out to be nothing. But I never saw any actual risks taken that meant anything or feel like they have any major impact on the story/universe.  Some boring/dumb stuff happened and we left the situation exactly how we came into it. I feel like the guys at Redlettermedia put it best. This movie wasn't absolutely terrible, but at best it was only sporadically interesting. They didn't really set up much for the sequel, nor am I even interested in where it goes.

I'll be skipping the next one cause I fear we'll either get another poor Marvel movie wannabe. Or they'll try to fix so much from this one it'll become a muddled mess. 



 

epicurean on 01 January 2018
DakonBlackblade said:
epicurean said:

What did Rey learn from Luke (or anyone, really)? What terrible decision did she make? She was right about everything except Kylo turning, even though it could be argued he did turn to some degree. 

She played right into Snoke's had, she walked into a trap and was only saved cause Kylo used her. She learned what the force emans, she saw what bad decisions can do to a person (in Luke) she learned from Luke the jedi had a lot of it wrong as well, and she has the resolve to actualy face Kylo and stop rpetrending she can save everyone in the world in the end. Realy ppl the bias toward only seing what Rey does right is too much on this new trilogy.

Um, you wrote 3 sentences and managed to contradict yourself in that amount of time. The first sentence is false, she knew she was walking into that and Kylo changed, just as she said he would. What did she learn the Jedi had done wrong? I don't remember any of that. You say she learned to have the resolve to face Kylo, even though she already had faced him once and that that was a good thing, when previously you said she had walked right into a trap - so is that a good thing or a bad thing? And you say she needs to stop pretending she can save everyone in the world when that's still exactly what she's trying to do. 

Like...everything in that paragraph was either wrong or a contradiction.



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thismeintiel on 01 January 2018
DakonBlackblade said:
thismeintiel said:

Except ESB did better that ROTJ WW, and would not have been down as much if it and ANH had the same time in theaters. Again, not excuses TLJ can use. What's really pathetic is this movie may just match ESB, inflation adjusted, even though the foreign and domestic markets have expanded so much. Something TFA took advantage of, but TLJ was just not good enough for it to matter.

But, you just keep those blinders on.

Your new argument is that ESB did worse than New Hope so it doesn't make sense that Ep VIII is doing worse than VII is a bit hard to uderstand, who cares if ESB stayed longer or not than NW on theathers, it did worse end of history. And don't adjust to inflation that makes 0 sense, the world has changed dramatically, its stupid to asume a movie would have any kind of similar sucess in today's market and therefor just updatign the numbers is OK.

Ep VII BO's is not a parameter to any movie, it is as stupid as ppl using Avatar as a parameter to compare EP VII two years ago. Outliers are just that, you can't compare anythign to them.

Oh, so don't take things in context? Only out of context and in a way that benefits your argument? Gotcha. No need to respond from here on out. 



 

epicurean on 01 January 2018
thismeintiel said:
epicurean said:

" millions of critics" - uhhhhh?

I just feel like we must have seen different movies. I don't want there to be conspiracies or anything, but that movie was really, really bad. Like I said, I've never had such a disconnect with critics before, and there seems to be a lot of other people who feel the same. I don't know what this "smear" campaign is you're talking about, other than people just really hated the movie.

I think if people were honest with themselves, and this movie was called Space Battles, people would look at it as a poor imitation of SW, but with a boring, drawn out plot that really leads nowhere. Sure it's pretty, but so are some of Michael Bay's films. That doesn't make them good/great.  But, because it's SW, some just feel the need to not just love it, instead of just thinking it's OK, but also completely ignore the major plot holes and plot points that amounted to nothing. And label anyone bringing up its flaws just a hater or fanboy (though that's the opposite of a fanboy), and when asked to address them, they just don't/can't. 

Also, the whole taking risks thing. What risks? Maybe risking pissing off a lot of the fanbase by trolling them, having things set up to mean something just turn out to be nothing. But I never saw any actual risks taken that meant anything or feel like they have any major impact on the story/universe.  Some boring/dumb stuff happened and we left the situation exactly how we came into it. I feel like the guys at Redlettermedia put it best. This movie wasn't absolutely terrible, but at best it was only sporadically interesting. They didn't really set up much for the sequel, nor am I even interested in where it goes.

I'll be skipping the next one cause I fear we'll either get another poor Marvel movie wannabe. Or they'll try to fix so much from this one it'll become a muddled mess. 

If the movie had been called "Space Battles" it would have been perfect as an obvious parody, which is what I thought I was watching for most of the movie.



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DakonBlackblade on 01 January 2018
epicurean said:
DakonBlackblade said:

She played right into Snoke's had, she walked into a trap and was only saved cause Kylo used her. She learned what the force emans, she saw what bad decisions can do to a person (in Luke) she learned from Luke the jedi had a lot of it wrong as well, and she has the resolve to actualy face Kylo and stop rpetrending she can save everyone in the world in the end. Realy ppl the bias toward only seing what Rey does right is too much on this new trilogy.

Um, you wrote 3 sentences and managed to contradict yourself in that amount of time. The first sentence is false, she knew she was walking into that and Kylo changed, just as she said he would. What did she learn the Jedi had done wrong? I don't remember any of that. You say she learned to have the resolve to face Kylo, even though she already had faced him once and that that was a good thing, when previously you said she had walked right into a trap - so is that a good thing or a bad thing? And you say she needs to stop pretending she can save everyone in the world when that's still exactly what she's trying to do. 

Like...everything in that paragraph was either wrong or a contradiction.

She had absolute no idea how strong Snoke was and she got mauled by him, and Kylo did not change, he manipulated Rey to achieve power, he manipulated Rey more so than Snoke, seriously dude do you even know what you were seing ? The entire Rey arc is she learning how delusional she was in thinking she ahd anythign under controll and mustering the resolve to face Kylo the proper way. The first time she fought Kylo she didnt'realy knew what she was doing, the second time he manipulated her like a puppet, in the end she understands her place in the world. Ppl who say Luke didn't teach her anythign is insane, she was there with Luke, she saw how he was. Then she sees his sacrifice in the end and understands the torch is now her to bear but that she can't save everyone, sacrifices are necessary. What the hell ppl.



DakonBlackblade on 01 January 2018
thismeintiel said:
DakonBlackblade said:

Your new argument is that ESB did worse than New Hope so it doesn't make sense that Ep VIII is doing worse than VII is a bit hard to uderstand, who cares if ESB stayed longer or not than NW on theathers, it did worse end of history. And don't adjust to inflation that makes 0 sense, the world has changed dramatically, its stupid to asume a movie would have any kind of similar sucess in today's market and therefor just updatign the numbers is OK.

Ep VII BO's is not a parameter to any movie, it is as stupid as ppl using Avatar as a parameter to compare EP VII two years ago. Outliers are just that, you can't compare anythign to them.

Oh, so don't take things in context? Only out of context and in a way that benefits your argument? Gotcha. No need to respond from here on out. 

Context, the second bigest BO on the history of every is context for what ? That is an outlier. Context is Avengers, Jurasic World, Rogue One, other movies with great BO but that aren't so outside the curve you can't even make sense of the numebrs. Compared to all of them Ep VIII has  a pretty standard behavior, a bit ahead of the curve with last few days number actualy. The outlier you leave it there, its not a standard, thats the whole meaning of the word outlier.

Last edited by DakonBlackblade - on 01 January 2018

epicurean on 01 January 2018
DakonBlackblade said:
epicurean said:

Um, you wrote 3 sentences and managed to contradict yourself in that amount of time. The first sentence is false, she knew she was walking into that and Kylo changed, just as she said he would. What did she learn the Jedi had done wrong? I don't remember any of that. You say she learned to have the resolve to face Kylo, even though she already had faced him once and that that was a good thing, when previously you said she had walked right into a trap - so is that a good thing or a bad thing? And you say she needs to stop pretending she can save everyone in the world when that's still exactly what she's trying to do. 

Like...everything in that paragraph was either wrong or a contradiction.

She had absolute no idea how strong Snoke was and she got mauled by him, and Kylo did not change, he manipulated Rey to achieve power, he manipulated Rey more so than Snoke, seriously dude do you even know what you were seing ? The entire Rey arc is she learnign how delusional she was and mustering the resolve to face Kylo the proper way. The first time she fought Kylo she didnt'realy knew what she was doing, the second time he manipulated her like a pupped, in the end she understands her place in the world. Ppl who say Luke didn't teach him anythign is insane, she was there with Luke, she saw how he was. Then she sees his sacrifice in the end and understands the torch is now her to bear but that she can't save everyone, sacrifices are necessary. What the hell ppl.

I mean, if you got that out of the movie, even though it never implied any of it, thats fine. But don't expect other people to extrapolate these things when the movie doesn't say them. Luke gave her one "lesson" and then quit because she went "straight to the dark". 

I never got the implication Kylo manipulated her at all. He was doing crap on the fly, he never had that plan ahead of time from anything I gathered. If you did, fine, but the movie sure didn't imply that.

Your last sentence is pure conjecture with nothing in the film leading the viewer to believe that.



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