Forums - General Discussion - Should I wait for OLED to drop or just buy 4K LED now?

torok said:

OLED still suffers from burn-in and the life of the panel still is shorter. For smartphones these two things are not that relevant because the battery gives away way earlier and nobody keeps their phones for a lot of time.

Gaming is not good for OLEDs. If you play the same game frequently (let's say, an RPG like Skyrim or an online game that hooks you up), you could end up with the HUD burned in your screen.

But TVs are expected to last a few years. So, until they solve the shortcomings of OLED, it's LCD all the way. OLED is a superior tech, the image quality is indeed better. But it won't look better anymore when you have a minimap and a health bar burned in your panel.

I used my LCD tv for 11 years, I still use my plasma from 10 years ago. The LCD developed issues with the controller causing random blue dot patterns and had already plenty banding issues so it needed replacing. The plasma got duller over time yet since it's set to very dark, used in the bedroom, it doesn't really matter.

What I wonder with OLED is how long do they last. You can prevent burn-in with responsible use (no kids playing you tube and video games all day) yet what it really is is burn out. The pixels degrade over time and all you're doing is ensuring they degrade at the same rate. Now they claim the tv lasts 100.000 hours, yet how long until the image quality drops below a quality LCD tv. Plus that 100.000 hour figure, how realistic is that. They can't have tested that yet as that is 11.4 years at 24 hr per day....

rtings.com might be stressing the tv beyond responsible use, but they clearly show burn-in or wear does happen and happens quite fast. http://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/permanent-image-retention-burn-in-lcd-oled



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SvennoJ said:

I used my LCD tv for 11 years, I still use my plasma from 10 years ago. The LCD developed issues with the controller causing random blue dot patterns and had already plenty banding issues so it needed replacing. The plasma got duller over time yet since it's set to very dark, used in the bedroom, it doesn't really matter.

What I wonder with OLED is how long do they last. You can prevent burn-in with responsible use (no kids playing you tube and video games all day) yet what it really is is burn out. The pixels degrade over time and all you're doing is ensuring they degrade at the same rate. Now they claim the tv lasts 100.000 hours, yet how long until the image quality drops below a quality LCD tv. Plus that 100.000 hour figure, how realistic is that. They can't have tested that yet as that is 11.4 years at 24 hr per day....

rtings.com might be stressing the tv beyond responsible use, but they clearly show burn-in or wear does happen and happens quite fast. http://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/permanent-image-retention-burn-in-lcd-oled

I'm quite skeptic of these numbers. OLED on phones is way more common and you can see burn-in popping up on 2 to 3 year phones. Demo devices at stores have severe burn-in after weeks (OK, they are an extreme case, but LCD ones seem way more resilient to that). And you have the Pixel 2 XL with severe issues and mostly seem linked to actual pixel burn out, because they use a black nav bar with white solid buttons (Samsung uses a white nav bar with thin black buttons that are constantly changing position to avoid that).

If devices like smartphones, that people use for like 2 to 5 hours a day (screen on-time is usually that) can show problems with burn-in and aging when people hardly stay more than 2 years with a device, it's troublesome.

I really, really, don't want to worry about the kind of content I display on my TV. So OLED is a no-go for me. It's my go-to choice for phones since longevity is not that much of a worry (the battery gives up faster).

The link you posted is a fantastic test. It's amazing how the LCD ones basically have zero issues while the burn-in is massive in the OLED TV after a bit more than a month. I know it's an extreme case, but it could well happen after 3 or 4 years.



torok said:

I'm quite skeptic of these numbers. OLED on phones is way more common and you can see burn-in popping up on 2 to 3 year phones. Demo devices at stores have severe burn-in after weeks (OK, they are an extreme case, but LCD ones seem way more resilient to that). And you have the Pixel 2 XL with severe issues and mostly seem linked to actual pixel burn out, because they use a black nav bar with white solid buttons (Samsung uses a white nav bar with thin black buttons that are constantly changing position to avoid that).

If devices like smartphones, that people use for like 2 to 5 hours a day (screen on-time is usually that) can show problems with burn-in and aging when people hardly stay more than 2 years with a device, it's troublesome.

I really, really, don't want to worry about the kind of content I display on my TV. So OLED is a no-go for me. It's my go-to choice for phones since longevity is not that much of a worry (the battery gives up faster).

The link you posted is a fantastic test. It's amazing how the LCD ones basically have zero issues while the burn-in is massive in the OLED TV after a bit more than a month. I know it's an extreme case, but it could well happen after 3 or 4 years.

The scary thing is, it's not even that extreme

  • Top and bottom: Letterbox bars present for 2 hours, then absent for 3.5 hours (movie example)
  • Top left: 100% solid logo, present for the whole clip (torture test)
  • Top right: 50% opacity logo, present for the whole clip (network logo torture test)
  • Bottom left: 100% solid logo, present for 2 hours then absent for 3.5 hours (video games example)
  • Bottom right: 50% opacity logo, present for 10 minutes then absent for 2 minutes (sports or TV shows example)

And that's running with pixel shift and clear panel noise weekly, the measures to prevent burn-in

It passes the letterbox test so far. Yet even the 50% opacity, 10 minutes on, 2 minutes commercial, starts to become visible after 10 weeks. How would it have coped with me playing BotW on that for 170 hours, plus my kids for half that each. Would the red health hearts be burned into the screen?
Playing GT Sport every night for hours, will the HUD elements become faintly visible while watching tv.
Super Mario Odyssey played for hours in the the afternoon and frequently left on by my kids has static hud elements as well.

OLED looks great in PSVR and luckily static hud elements aren't a problem there as it's never static on the screen itself.

Anyway I don't want to worry about what games are played how long or if any frequently watched content might have harmful logos. I just replaced my old CCFL LCD tv which developed horizontal banding issues. Not a problem during normal content, yet games with smooth gradients like Journey got very ugly on it. It will be interesting to see in that test if the LCD panels still suffer from that. Unfortunately they started with pretty low uniformity panels in the first place. Anyway no striping yet.



SvennoJ said:

The scary thing is, it's not even that extreme

  • Top and bottom: Letterbox bars present for 2 hours, then absent for 3.5 hours (movie example)
  • Top left: 100% solid logo, present for the whole clip (torture test)
  • Top right: 50% opacity logo, present for the whole clip (network logo torture test)
  • Bottom left: 100% solid logo, present for 2 hours then absent for 3.5 hours (video games example)
  • Bottom right: 50% opacity logo, present for 10 minutes then absent for 2 minutes (sports or TV shows example)

And that's running with pixel shift and clear panel noise weekly, the measures to prevent burn-in

It passes the letterbox test so far. Yet even the 50% opacity, 10 minutes on, 2 minutes commercial, starts to become visible after 10 weeks. How would it have coped with me playing BotW on that for 170 hours, plus my kids for half that each. Would the red health hearts be burned into the screen?
Playing GT Sport every night for hours, will the HUD elements become faintly visible while watching tv.
Super Mario Odyssey played for hours in the the afternoon and frequently left on by my kids has static hud elements as well.

OLED looks great in PSVR and luckily static hud elements aren't a problem there as it's never static on the screen itself.

Anyway I don't want to worry about what games are played how long or if any frequently watched content might have harmful logos. I just replaced my old CCFL LCD tv which developed horizontal banding issues. Not a problem during normal content, yet games with smooth gradients like Journey got very ugly on it. It will be interesting to see in that test if the LCD panels still suffer from that. Unfortunately they started with pretty low uniformity panels in the first place. Anyway no striping yet.

Agree. I don't actually watch a lot of TV. But I game a lot. I'm playing a lot of Uncharted 4 online, so 2 hours a day with the same HUD is a given. You cases (BotW, GT Sport, Mario) is completely normal. People put a lot of hours on those games and the HUD is mostly static.

A lot of people normally watch several hours of the same channel, so the logo test is reasonable. Sports too. Those numbers are all doable, I have to agree that this test is not extreme, it is not a torture test. It's above average for sure, but even if normal usage takes 10 times longer to achieve the same effect, this test did it in less than 2 months. Hell, even if it takes 20 times longe that is not even 4 years and I don't think people plan to buy 1K dollar TVs every 4 years.

PSVR needs the OLED because of the low image persistence. But it also isn't really something that has to last a decade like a TV. And you also don't use your PSVR 4 hours per day, so that attenuates the issue.



Hynad said:
Azuren said:

Yes, they do. They also take the crown for burn-in and lost detail in blacks (OLED diodes on LG OLEDs turn off at 20cd/me, losing all detail that appears in that range).

 

My original mention of QLED was in reference to how OLED would never reach an acceptable state before it was beaten, and I thought that's what we were discussing. As far as picture quality now, there are four TVs from Sony alone that top out the Q9F, so it's not impressing anyone right now.

 

I would argue that something with a burn-in rate like OLED isn't consumer ready.

But you're making a bigger deal out of burn-in than it is.

From the link I shared:

SCREEN BURN-IN

"We include this section begrudgingly, both because burn-in is a misnomer (that’s just an aggravation) and, for most folks, the effect will not be an issue.

The effect we’ve come to know as burn-in stems from the days of the boxy CRT TV, when prolonged display of a static image would cause that image to appear to “burn” into the screen. What was actually taking place then was the phosphors that coated the back of the TV screen would glow for extended periods of time without any rest, causing the phosphors to wear out and create the appearance of a burned-in image. We think this should be called “burn out.” But … whatever.

The same issue is at play with OLED TVs because the compounds that light up do degrade over time. If you burn a pixel long and hard enough, you will cause it to dim prematurely and ahead of the rest of the pixels, creating a dark impression. However, in reality, this is not very likely to cause a problem for anyone — you’d have to abuse the TV intentionally in order to achieve this result. Even the “bug” (logo graphic) that certain channels use disappears often enough or is made clear so as to avoid causing burn-in issues. You’d have to watch ESPN all day every day (for many days) at the brightest possible setting to cause a problem, and even then it still isn’t very likely.

That said, the potential is there, and it should be noted. Since QLED TVs aren’t susceptible to burn-in, they win this fight by technicality"

Three. TVs. A week. At one store.

 

It's not an over exaggeration. It's not a myth. It's not kind of an issue. It's a debilitating weakness in OLED technology that can and will result in burn-in. You can share all the links you want from people who are too dazzled by the black levels the pay attention to the widely reported burn-in on OLED panels, but it's not going to change the fact that you will have burn-in relatively early in the TV's life if you put static images on it.

 

But you know what? If you really want burn-in, grab an OLED. Keep taking advice from people who deal with TVs on a one-on-one basis. Ignore the guy who deals with large numbers of TVs for a living. Ignore problems so glaringly bad that a website known for their love of OLEDs (Rtings) is conducting a damning test on them.

Last edited by Azuren - on 27 November 2017

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torok said:

Agree. I don't actually watch a lot of TV. But I game a lot. I'm playing a lot of Uncharted 4 online, so 2 hours a day with the same HUD is a given. You cases (BotW, GT Sport, Mario) is completely normal. People put a lot of hours on those games and the HUD is mostly static.

A lot of people normally watch several hours of the same channel, so the logo test is reasonable. Sports too. Those numbers are all doable, I have to agree that this test is not extreme, it is not a torture test. It's above average for sure, but even if normal usage takes 10 times longer to achieve the same effect, this test did it in less than 2 months. Hell, even if it takes 20 times longe that is not even 4 years and I don't think people plan to buy 1K dollar TVs every 4 years.

PSVR needs the OLED because of the low image persistence. But it also isn't really something that has to last a decade like a TV. And you also don't use your PSVR 4 hours per day, so that attenuates the issue.

Hah, you don't know me, it's more like 5 hours per day with Skyrim :p Yet you never hold your head exactly in the same place and even if you could the system has inherent drift and turns off when you take the headset off. Also 2D content is displayed on a virtual screen so not fixed on the physical screen. And yeah, definitely not planning to use it for a decade. Yet after very heavy use in the last year, I do have the slight suspicion the colors aren't quite as dazzlingly bright anymore as when playing Thumper last year. The lenses show wear too of course.

Anyway this defense of logos aren't on all the time, prevent it by turning it off frequently or vary with different content, all doesn't matter. The damage is cumulative and progresses steadily. It's simply inherent wear in the technology. Better not have any favorite game or channel as eventually it will start to show.



I've had a 2015 LG OLED for 2 years and haven't experienced any problems with burn-in, but I guess that's due to my particular use-case. I watch a good balance of netflix / amazon / iplayer / and various sky channels, and of course gaming.

I've sunk around 80-90 hours into zelda, around the same in MK8D & have about 500 moons in Odyssey (so I guess 30-40 hours & a good amount of time in Shadow of Mordor and a couple of other big PC games in that time.

The thing is, is that even when playing 8 hours of zelda in a single sitting you're going between your map & inventory constantly, not to mention cut scenes and little cues & animation where the HUD isn't displaying that I guess it offers enough relief to the TV not to be a problem (in my case, at this stage of the TVs life anyway).

I'd say that's probably the case for a lot of games - though I'm sure there are examples of games where the HUD is present most, if not all of the time, and that may prove an issue!

I've had a look at the link to the burn in test posted earlier in this thread and whilst I don't contest that there is the risk of burn-in with OLEDs, they are subjecting the sets to an extreme set of parameters... 20 hours a day, every day with the same set of logos...

Again, I'm not denying there's an issue there, I'm just saying that if you run a balanced diet of content through your OLED, the signs are that you should be fine - for up to 2 years and counting in my case (also, I haven't noticed any OLED owners on this thread having noticed any issues - that surely means something!)

And we can't forget the flip side of this coin - the absolutely stunning, unparalleled viewing experience. If it comes to it, I personally will be fine with having to replace my set every 5 years (which is about the same as a console or PC and about twice as long as the average smart phone) if it means getting the premium experience - but that's just me.

Some of the scare-mongering on this thread is a bit OTT in my opinion & if the issue really was as bad as some are insisting then surely every OLED review would come with a massive asterisk next to it warning that your TV will be f**ked within a year of using...

Do the research, have a look at your own use case & then decide what the best fit it - simples!



SvennoJ said:

Hah, you don't know me, it's more like 5 hours per day with Skyrim :p Yet you never hold your head exactly in the same place and even if you could the system has inherent drift and turns off when you take the headset off. Also 2D content is displayed on a virtual screen so not fixed on the physical screen. And yeah, definitely not planning to use it for a decade. Yet after very heavy use in the last year, I do have the slight suspicion the colors aren't quite as dazzlingly bright anymore as when playing Thumper last year. The lenses show wear too of course.

Anyway this defense of logos aren't on all the time, prevent it by turning it off frequently or vary with different content, all doesn't matter. The damage is cumulative and progresses steadily. It's simply inherent wear in the technology. Better not have any favorite game or channel as eventually it will start to show.

Hahahahahah, ok, I recon some people may play that much. Anyway, since the HUD is not fixed it won't result in burn-in. However I think the loss of colors is probably too soon. Phones or the Vita don't show it that early. Anyway, if it goes bad in like 3 years it will probably be pretty cheap at that point or you will be playing a PSVR2 on PS5.



oled is the best picture quality but sonys x900 comes close at good value