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Forums - Gaming - Microsoft pushing EXTREMELY HARD with marketing the one X

Errorist76 said:

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-1700-vs-AMD-Athlon-5350-APU-R3/3917vsm10020

Ok, it’s more like 400%....my bad.

Still. You were close enough.
Although... Those are synthetics, not real-world so your mileage will still vary.

Errorist76 said:
So you’ve chosen to completely disregard my arguments for price gap and leaving behind base console users...?! I wonder why.

Well. Mostly because I don't care about pricing. Obviously.
I am a little biased in this aspect because I own a dozen consoles in conjunction with high-end PC's and thousands of games across them all, $100 is stuff all money in 2017 at the end of the day.

But... We also need to remember the Xbox One X is also marketed as a Premium product, it is meant to have a higher price.
The Xbox One S is the more budget orientated product and will push the lower price... That is generally why companies have multiple products in a product lineup, so they can hit various price points and the needs/wants/desires of as many consumers as possible to make a buck.

Errorist76 said:
Considering that vid..I’ve read the according DF article about that intelligent delivery a while ago already. It’s a concept in development atm , which they will mostly use for their excessively huge first party titles in order to shrink their sizes.

It's more than just a concept, it's in active development.

Errorist76 said:
why would anyone understand he has to download 4K assets on his base X1?! It’s crazy X1 users even had to download those updates.

You don't have to download 4k assets on an Xbox One. That is a false assertion on your behalf.
You have the option to download 4k assets on the Xbox One so you can migrate them over to an Xbox One X at a later date.

taus90 said:

 The only issue I could think of is LPDDR rams bandwidth but again with a closed platform and a fast SDXC card or an onboard nvme solution those can be easily offset. 

SDXC/NVMe isn't going to offset memory bandwidth. Not in a mobile device.
Besides... NVMe solutions typically top out at 3GB/s... Which isn't going to make much of a difference at the end of the day when Ram is easily 10x that in the super low-end these days.
Also NVMe @ 3GB/s requires power, not something that is ideal in a mobile device.
Not to mention that NVMe drives obtain such transfer rates thanks to the use of a ton of memory chips, memory operations can be highly parallel.

SDXC is even more depressing. Most SDXC cards top out at around 100MB/s.
Some premium cards can do 280MB/s... But all pale in comparison to the 20,000-60,000MB/s that ram can potentially offer in a mobile device.

taus90 said:

 And this is not even on 10nm, even a mass produced snapdragon 835 is outputting 500+ GF at 2k resolution, bring that too 1080p it goes even higher.  

Not entirely sure I understand your reasoning.

Are you suggesting a device gains more "GF" the lower the resolution goes?

taus90 said:

 

Again apple with its A11 chip has showcased that very same thing which you are skeptical about, infact A11 is derived from the PSvita hardware successors which i mentioned in my previous post.. an in house custom design 3 core GPU, based on PowerVR cores and for CPU 4 high power cores and 2 low power cores and that think is outperforming a 2017 mac pro with i5. I am an iOS and Android Developer and the things A11 can do really makes me wish sony should consider a vita2. And if u talk about the price of iphone 8, remember we are talking about apple here.

 

Apple seems to be ahead of the industry with it's mobile chips... And they really are not directly comparable to the competition...
Mostly because Apples ARM cores tend to be extremely wide along the lines of an Intel Core chip.

Would it be out-performing a Core i5 that can turbo to 3.5-3.6Ghz though? Hell no.
But it's still a potent chip all things considered.

taus90 said:

 

Also if Sony and MS can redesign a far worse Jaguar APU and produce the result which we have on PS4... u think they cant redesign a far better and more enegy efficient ryzen apu to fit onto a tablet size device?? Bottom line is a system designed around close platform and ability to code directly to hardware will always be better than general purpose device based on the same hardware.

 

No one codes directly to the hardware anymore, no one writes in Assembly/Machine in 2017, there is no need for it.
But the good thing about that is... It's far easier to retain backwards compatibility and develop software and games.

With that... A Pascal based Tegra can provide 50% more performance for the same power over the Maxwell Tegra (Aka. The chip in the Switch).
And provide 128% more bandwidth. (The biggest game changer for performance at 1080P verses the Switch.)

A Volta based Tegra has already been demonstrated for a few markets like cars... And is set to double the Pascal based Tegra again and is using 16nm at TSMC.
There would be power/performance gains if nVidia shifted Volta Tegra to "12nm" as well of a around 10%...

In short, I doubt we will get a chip that is a Playstation 4 in identical capabilities for many years yet, but we can get "close enough" with hardware available today/soon.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 12 November 2017


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Pemalite said:
Errorist76 said:

Oh, now I see what type you are...NSA impersonated.


No need for conspiracy theories.

Errorist76 said:
It enhances games without making base unit users feel like they’re using the far inferior machine. All this without massively increasing the file sizes of its games.

The X1X has such a huge GPU power gap it makes base X1 look terrible in comparison. I’d feel really bad if I paid 500 for one just 4 years ago.

Do you honestly think Xbox One gamers actually care? It's common knowledge that the Xbox One and Xbox One S was the technically inferior machine next to the Playstation 4. If it didn't bother Xbox One gamers then, why would they give a crap now? Think about it.

Besides. The Playstation 4 Pro is the technically superior platform compared to the Playstation 4. No sugar coating it there.
And the Xbox One X is the technically superior platform compared to the Playstation 4 and Playstation 4 Pro. That's life.

The Xbox One's performance never changed for the worst.
If someone paid $500 for their console 4 years ago, then they have gotten their money's worth.
You are NOT entitled to have the fastest console ever in a product lineup for eternity you know... There is this thing called "Progression".  - It does actually happen.

To put it bluntly...
If someone complains about the Xbox One X's superior capabilities relative to it's predecessor...
But then champions the Playstation 4 Pro's superior capabilities relative to it's predecessor...

Then they are a hypocrite with double standards, short and simple. - Ask yourself if that apply's to you or if I have simply misconstrued your statements.


Errorist76 said:
Additionally it blows up game sizes to huge amounts, 100-150 GB in some cases, which not only leads to problems with HDD space, download times and data caps, but also longer loading times as reported for Shadow Of War and Wolfenstein 2.

This “intelligent delivery” feature you’re talking about is nothing more than a damage control story atm, that MS is looking into.

For the love of god. Watch the video I posted. Digital Foundry is credible... Making your false "Damage Control" claim entirely redundant.
Here it is again:


As an Xbox One X owner. Majority of games are under 100GB. Only a few exceptions are over that number.

Errorist76 said:
If you really doubt next gen will offer at least a 500% boost in CPU performance, just compare a 4 year old Jaguar core to today’s Ryzen.

I am not doubting anything, that is a false assertion on your behalf, I am asking for citations that show me how you came to such a conclusion.

I believe the problem in this case would arise if they start releasing X1 version of games that are excessively bad because the port is focused on X1X. But since X1 isn't so far from PS4, I don't think that will happen this gen.

RandyS86 said:
Errorist76 said:

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-1700-vs-AMD-Athlon-5350-APU-R3/3917vsm10020

Ok, it’s more like 400%....my bad.

So you’ve chosen to completely disregard my arguments for price gap and leaving behind base console users...?! I wonder why.

Considering that vid..I’ve read the according DF article about that intelligent delivery a while ago already. It’s a concept atm which they will mostly use for their excessively huge first party titles in order to shrink their sizes. It’s even mandatory, why would anyone understand he has to download 4K assets on his base X1?! It’s crazy X1 users even had to download those updates.

Even DF question many third parties will use it though.

That said it’s still just a concept and not active yet, just like I said.

The 5350 Launched at $60.

The 1700 Launched at $329 

Are you seriously comparing those 2 processors?

As for file sizes, I just googled it and the average X1X enhanced game is 20% bigger on 1X vs the base 1 but Microsoft gives you 100% more storage on the 1TB 1X vs the 500GB base model, so that argument is destroyed.

You claim the PS4 Pro is half the price of the 1X but in reality $399 is only 20% less than $499, not 50%.

How would owners of the OG Xbox One feel bad?  The console is 4 years old and Microsoft is giving them the OPTION to upgrade to the most powerful console ever made... All games are compatible between the 2 machine so your argument, again, is invalid.

You also say Sony did the right thing by only offering a marginal upgrade with the Pro... Seriously?  Sony wants $400 for a system that is 2.3 times more powerful than the base PS4 while Microsoft only wants $100 more for a system that is 4.6 times more powerful than the base Xbox One and somehow that translates into Microsoft being the bad guy?

I've seen a lot of hypocritical statements here on VGChartz but nothing tops this. Unreal.

He is talking X1 or PS4 price versus X1X not PS4Pro... X1X selling for 499 is more than double X1/PS4 price right now... and if (some are expecting) PS4Pro drops to 299 then X1X will be "near" double the price of PS4Pro.

Not that anyone that think about buying X1X is worried about how much the other 3 cost, because if he was he wouldn't even consider X1X.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

He is talking X1 or PS4 price versus X1X not PS4Pro... X1X selling for 499 is more than double X1/PS4 price right now... and if (some are expecting) PS4Pro drops to 299 then X1X will be "near" double the price of PS4Pro.

Not that anyone that think about buying X1X is worried about how much the other 3 cost, because if he was he wouldn't even consider X1X.

Yeah I understood the pricing argument.

But the Xbox One X was never advertised as a price competitive alternative, it's going to push sales with better hardware in the short term.
When sales languish, then expect price drops, that's usually how these things go.

Sony will of course attempt to undercut Microsoft with lower prices and game bundles...  Which will attract more gamers. - And good on them, that's what competition is all about, companies reacting to each other not just in price, but features too... And that is good for everyone.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

He is talking X1 or PS4 price versus X1X not PS4Pro... X1X selling for 499 is more than double X1/PS4 price right now... and if (some are expecting) PS4Pro drops to 299 then X1X will be "near" double the price of PS4Pro.

Not that anyone that think about buying X1X is worried about how much the other 3 cost, because if he was he wouldn't even consider X1X.

Yeah I understood the pricing argument.

But the Xbox One X was never advertised as a price competitive alternative, it's going to push sales with better hardware in the short term.
When sales languish, then expect price drops, that's usually how these things go.

Sony will of course attempt to undercut Microsoft with lower prices and game bundles...  Which will attract more gamers. - And good on them, that's what competition is all about, companies reacting to each other not just in price, but features too... And that is good for everyone.

Yep.. the market is price sensitive, but since they still offer X1, I don't think X1X price is an issue (unless they have expectations that are excessively positive).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

RandyS86 said:
Errorist76 said:

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-7-1700-vs-AMD-Athlon-5350-APU-R3/3917vsm10020

Ok, it’s more like 400%....my bad.

 

So you’ve chosen to completely disregard my arguments for price gap and leaving behind base console users...?! I wonder why.

 

Considering that vid..I’ve read the according DF article about that intelligent delivery a while ago already. It’s a concept atm which they will mostly use for their excessively huge first party titles in order to shrink their sizes. It’s even mandatory, why would anyone understand he has to download 4K assets on his base X1?! It’s crazy X1 users even had to download those updates.

Even DF question many third parties will use it though.

That said it’s still just a concept and not active yet, just like I said.

The 5350 Launched at $60.

The 1700 Launched at $329 

Are you seriously comparing those 2 processors?

As for file sizes, I just googled it and the average X1X enhanced game is 20% bigger on 1X vs the base 1 but Microsoft gives you 100% more storage on the 1TB 1X vs the 500GB base model, so that argument is destroyed.

You claim the PS4 Pro is half the price of the 1X but in reality $399 is only 20% less than $499, not 50%.

How would owners of the OG Xbox One feel bad?  The console is 4 years old and Microsoft is giving them the OPTION to upgrade to the most powerful console ever made... All games are compatible between the 2 machine so your argument, again, is invalid.

You also say Sony did the right thing by only offering a marginal upgrade with the Pro... Seriously?  Sony wants $400 for a system that is 2.3 times more powerful than the base PS4 while Microsoft only wants $100 more for a system that is 4.6 times more powerful than the base Xbox One and somehow that translates into Microsoft being the bad guy?

I've seen a lot of hypocritical statements here on VGChartz but nothing tops this. Unreal.

Ps4 Pro was 400 LAST YEAR, it's available for 340,- already with an additional soon to be announced official price drop, possibly on PSX in December. It's a 40% power difference to PS4Pro, so nothing major. Sony wants 100 dollars more for a 2.3 times as fast console, basically because PS4 was already a decent machine.

Microsoft on the other hand wants 300 dollars more for a 4.6 times as fast console. Not sure what is the better proposition. It's basically the same.

 

My point still stands. Sony's way to go, with a substantial upgrade for 4K users at a minimal price difference while still respecting the base console and putting their money in game development....over MS's take to basically embarrass base X1 users in the future and putting their money on better looking multiplats..any day of the f'in week!

Last edited by Errorist76 - on 13 November 2017

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Conina said:

Considering that vid..I’ve read the according DF article about that intelligent delivery a while ago already. It’s a concept in development atm , which they will mostly use for their excessively huge first party titles in order to shrink their sizes. It’s even mandatory, why would anyone understand he has to download 4K assets on his base X1?! It’s crazy X1 users even had to download those updates.

They don't, that's what the video is all about! The Xbox One and Xbox One S don't download 4K assets, unless the users wants it to (f.e. if he is sharing an external HDD between the XBO (S) and XBO X or if he wants to download these assets so they are ready when the Xbox One X arrives).

The optional download of 4K assets is turned off by default on the Xbox One and Xbox One S:

 

The PS4s on the other hand can't (so far) separate between normal patch content and PS4-Pro-only enhancements, so many users of a normal PS4 have to download assets which are only used on PS4 Pros. So you are barking the wrong tree if you are complaining about unnecessary downloads for the base models.

No man, sorry but that's the thing. PS4 and Pro basically share the same assets as lack of more RAM doesn't allow for bigger textures.



Based on what I've seen on social media and YouTube comments, a lot of people seem to think they have to rebuy their old games. Microsoft needs to clarify that the exact same games people already own will look/run better on Xbox One X. I personally thought they conveyed this clearly but somehow, there is confusion.



It seems to have paid off, great initial sales so far. If it can sustain momentum we could see OR VR come to the X next year.



SegataSanshiro said:
It's a short-term success but once you get past enthusiasts and existing fans the thing will struggle. Xbox still suffers in the game department. A system several times less powerful is wiping the floor with it because of a lineup in its first-year miles ahead of a console in its 4th year's lineup. Great for one system and pathetic for the other. New hardware often does well out of the gate but not all have legs.

I kinda feel the xbox division fell into that trap thinking power is everything just because in the beginning of the gen everyone was comparing resolutions and framerates between ps4 n xbox one. The problem is the xbox one was 100 bucks more and at same time it had weaker hardware. Even at 400 bucks without kinect it still was weaker than a ps4 and the perceived value was less compared the ps4.

Microsoft was so tired of loosing in all them Digital Foundry comparisons so they had to top the "half assed" ps4 pro and so they focused on hardware instead of what really matters, games. Just comparing  ps4 2018 lineup to xbox lineup and its looking really spooky especially since none of their games hold any weight.

And this is after 2017 where PS4 had a beast lineup and xbox had the worst year ever.

So yeah i agree with what you said. Switch and base PS4 will wipe the floor with XBOX when it comes to games AND sales this and coming year(s).



Oh no, MS is marketing something; how dare they!

Anyway, to answer your question; no, MS marketing games as being the best on Xbox one x will not affect the sales between PS4 and Xbox One in any meaningful way.