Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's tax proposal: raise taxes on the poor, give to the rich

SpokenTruth said:
Superman4 said:

You missed the point. You will end up with less employees overall, just with higher wages and benefits. That is why it will take longer for projects. During times of disasster like Katrina and others building costs go up with demand for materials, not because of a lack of labor. Companies will and are starting to staff for year round work instead of overstaff for a project and layoff once the project is done. 

1. Back up that last statement with reports.

2. That's just one component of the economy.  I posted that chart of illegal immigrant percentage of several job sectors a page or so back.  You might want to take a look at it.

All of which fall under construction aside from AG.  Companies cut back on labor all the time and do the same amount of work with less people. That is exactly what will happen at first. How long it stays that way depends on a number of factors. I dont care how much free money the goverment gets from illegals in sales tax etc. Send them back where they came from and start focusing on legal citizens. If the border wall is made up entirely of tax paying citizens Im fine with it. If that means I have to wait an extra year for a new home then so be it. 



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Superman4 said:
SpokenTruth said:

1. Back up that last statement with reports.

2. That's just one component of the economy.  I posted that chart of illegal immigrant percentage of several job sectors a page or so back.  You might want to take a look at it.

All of which fall under construction aside from AG.  Companies cut back on labor all the time and do the same amount of work with less people. That is exactly what will happen at first. How long it stays that way depends on a number of factors. I dont care how much free money the goverment gets from illegals in sales tax etc. Send them back where they came from and start focusing on legal citizens. If the border wall is made up entirely of tax paying citizens Im fine with it. If that means I have to wait an extra year for a new home then so be it. 

Look at this chart.  It goes way way beyond just construction.  But go ahead and keep believing we can replace a massive proportion of a varied workforce without spiking prices.

SpokenTruth said:

Top 20 Jobs Held, 2008

Top 20 Occupations* # of Immigrant
Workers in the US
Illegally
Total # of All
Workers
% of Immigrants
in the US Illegally
in Total Work Force
1. Brickmasons, blockmasons, and stonemasons 131,000 325,000 40%
2. Drywall installers, ceiling tile installers and tapers 94,000 255,000 37%
3. Roofers 76,000 246,000 31%
4. Miscellaneous agricultural workers 269,000 910,000 30%
5. Helpers, construction trades 52,000 184,000 28%
6. Dishwashers 101,000 364,000 28%
7. Construction laborers 556,000 2,055,000 27%
8. Maids and housekeepers 417,000 1,555,000 27%
9. Cement Masons, concrete finishers, and terrazzo workers 29,000 109,000 27%
10. Packaging and filling machine operators and tenders 96,000 369,000 26%
11. Grounds maintenance workers 356,000 1,413,000 25%
12. Packers and packagers, hand 119,000 504,000 24%
13. Butchers, poultry and fish processing workers 71,000 305,000 23%
14. Carpet, floor, and tile installers and finishers 68,000 306,000 22%
15. Painters, construction and maintenance 173,000 791,000 22%
16. Parking lot attendants 21,000 100,000 21%
17. Chefs and head cooks 75,000 377,000 20%
18. Sewing machine operators 49,000 248,000 20%
19. Refuse and recyclable material collectors 22,000 112,000 19%
20. Cooks 427,000 2,219,000 19%
Other "unauthorized" occupations** 3,120,000 34,979,000 9%
All other occupations 1,928,000 106,407,000 2%
Total, Civilian Labor Force (with an occupation) 8,258,000 154,135,000 5%
Top 20 Occupations* # of Immigrant
Workers in the US
Illegally
Total # of All
Workers
% of Immigrants
in the US Illegally
in Total Work Force

Sources:

1. D'Vera Cohn and Jeffrey S. Passel,"Pew Hispanic Center Research Report: A Portrait of Unauthorized Immigrants in the United States," (1.82MB), Apr. 14, 2009

2. Jeffrey S. Passel, "Pew Hispanic Center Research Report: The Size and Characteristics of the Unauthorized Migrant Population in the U.S.: Estimates Based on the March 2005 Current Population Survey," Mar. 7, 2006



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

That report is 8 years old but at least it gives ICE a place to start looking.



Superman4 said:

So here is how it affects me. AFter putting money into my HSA and 401K I will net right at about 60K. With my wifes business depending on deductions it will probably clear 20K or so. At the moment I dont itemize and take the standard deduction plus the child deduction. So that equates to 12K plus the personel exemption of 4K and 3K for my kids. So 19K in deductions. Under the new plan I get 24K off the top plus 1.6K per kid and 300 for my wife. So 29.1K in deductions. Even if I owned my home which I will this year, it will be under 500K, I do have student loans that I will start to pay but the interest on those wont be 12K a year. Add to this that my tax rate will go from 10%, 15% and 25%down to 12% and I will save even more. I am Middle class truely. Anyone who says they are middle class and lives in the city with a 4K a month rent payment or a 1 million dollar home is delusional. 

Is this an argument? Different people would be in different situations. You say yourself that you don't really use many deductions

I did the math real quick to see what the difference is for someone married filing jointly with a total income of $80,000 with three kids and no other deductions and found that they would see a decrease in taxes of $1,205. That leaves a change in total after-tax income of 1.6% which is pretty close to what the graph I included said was average (maybe a bit above average since you don't have many deductions). If you use other deductions, that percentage starts to shrink. Say you have some student loans (as you say you do). Depending on how much they are, that could tack $375 off of your taxes paid, dropping that difference to 1.1%. 

Basically, as I previously said, depending on how much you utilized the factors that were cut, you may end up losing out. That doesn't apply to everybody, but it does apply to some. Others will end up getting a small increase in after tax income unless you are in the top 5% where you will be getting a pretty huge increase in after tax income. You are pulling in about 1.5%, or $1200 while those making $200,000 will pull in about 8%, or $16,000. 

That means you and families like yours are paying proportionally more to the government while more likely to be overcome by the negative side effects of inflating budgets due to the tiny gain you are receiving. 

While I do actually support some of the changes being made, the overall picture of who gets the benefit is far too warped to make this palatable. 

Last edited by sundin13 - on 03 November 2017

Welcome to Brazil, though taxes raises happens like every month around here, tho.



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Superman4 said:

That report is 8 years old but at least it gives ICE a place to start looking.

Just to be 100% clear here:  this is you conceding the argument.  It's one thing to say "I cannot think of any evidence or any counterargument to dispute your rebuttal but nevertheless you have not convinced me that my position is actually wrong", but when you almost completely ignore what was said and how it pertains to what you had claimed, and instead just pivot to "haha I hope immigration goes after those occupations", you are abandoning all pretense of having a serious conversation.  You should not be surprised if, in turn, you are not taken seriously. 



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Well looks like this thread was a little premature. Trump's tax plan cuts taxes for almost everyone except Californians earning between $400k & $500k due to the 10% (now non-deductible) state income tax.

Good explanation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUxbApoE8_U

Ben is a little pissed that he is going to lose money but it's a good analysis.



Superman4 said:

That report is 8 years old but at least it gives ICE a place to start looking.

That's what you got? 

1. So the illegal immigrant employment percentages are somehow dramatically lower today than 8 years ago?

2. And you're right.  They could start looking there. Maybe then ICE will stop stalking 10 year girls with cerebral palsey as they come out of surgey in the hospital and deporting them.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/26/560149316/10-year-old-girl-is-detained-by-ice-officers-after-emergency-surgery





Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
Superman4 said:

That report is 8 years old but at least it gives ICE a place to start looking.

That's what you got? 

1. So the illegal immigrant employment percentages are somehow dramatically lower today than 8 years ago?

2. And you're right.  They could start looking there. Maybe then ICE will stop stalking 10 year girls with cerebral palsey as they come out of surgey in the hospital and deporting them.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/26/560149316/10-year-old-girl-is-detained-by-ice-officers-after-emergency-surgery



That was my Agree to disagree. You clearly don’t get it so there is no point. I don’t care if they are in every single industry at very high levels and it will cause a mass shortage of employees initially by removing them. They shouldn’t have any of those jobs, are here illegally and need to be removed.  Any argument defending them is asinine since they are illegal and have no right to work. 

 

As for the girl, was she legal? Who is paying for this surgery? If she is illegal I dont care what her issue is or how old she is. 



Man the more info about the bill revealed the worse it sounds. Who would have thought?  Let us bury ourselves in debt for the corporate overlords. 

Republicans probably should have just done an infrastructure bill.  That would have created jobs and repaired our failing infrstructure.  I bet some Democrats would have gone along with an infrastructure bill too unless you have no bid contracts going to Trump cronies. 

Let the fun begin.  I bet house passes some kind of turd and then shit hits the wall in the senate.

Last edited by sethnintendo - on 07 November 2017