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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - First Super Mario Odyssey Review in! (EDGE)

Nuvendil said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

There is no objectivity. Objectivity is just a way of saying "Many people love this game critically, and I believe this, so this is the merit at which I judge reviews". The irony is that if you yourself believed BOTW was a 5, you'd probably be here saying that people weren't being objective enough.

I myself think it's close to a 9/10, so it's not like I'm coming from a place of agreeing with Jim. I just can't stand people that fundamentally want to lesser reviews because they don't like the opinion expressed. No, Jim doesn't need to make it an "article", he can make it a review, because it is a review. The problem with reviews is the writing quality, not the opinion expressed.

See, here I disagree.  Perfect objectivity is impossible.  But having a good bit of analytical distance is not.

Example:  I love Mount and Blade.  Poured hundreds of hours into it, recommended it to a lot of people.  But I'll tell you now, anyone who gave it a fraction over 7 is out of their mind.  Because even though I love it, I have the distance to be able to pick it apart and enumerate and explain his flaws.  You can love something and still be analytical and express that analysis with a *degree* objectivity.

I don't dislike Jim's review cause of his opinions or tone.  I dislike it because he failed to do the above.  

This all takes us to the concept of opinion quality: some opinions can stand stronger than others cause you can make a better case for them.  The opinion of "world politics is highly complex and there is no easy resolution for world peace is to be found in liberal or conservative politicy" has far more value than "if everyone could just have 3 pieces of chocolate  day, the whole world could be friends!"  Because the former has logical foundations and you can make a compelling case for it while the latter is silly nonsense.

A reviewer's statements should be made on sure footing and they should be able to make a compelling case for where they stand.  If they are to close to the subject matter, to entrenched in their own tastes to do that, there's a problem.

The problem is I agree with everything you said, but your comment *doesn't* show how an objective merit exists or why it's important. The reality is objectivity is just an idea used to say that you have enough de-tachment of something to look at it fairly, but that in and of itself being "objective" is not true, because there are also people who will come to a different conclusion than you despite being "fair". 

Your comment is great and I agree with it, but you don't really say anything that directly conflicts with what i'm saying other than you disagree and believe in objectivity. 

A case can be made that The Last Guardian is the best PS4 game. In fact, I expect Matthewmatosis to make a video likee that But that doesn't mean that there aren't problems with the game that can lead to an amazing review concluding the game is a mixed bag. Both reviews can be just as "fair" and have points that back up their claim just as much, yet they have different conclusions.



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Video game reviews are not politics. Just having the best argument doesn't mean what you're saying will actually hold true for most people.


You could make the most compelling argument for why the QTEs in Resident Evil 6 actually aided the immersion and made that game a masterpiece, and the people reading could totally buy into it. But once they actually play the game and 90% of them realise the argument was total BS, they're probably not gonna feel like the review did them justice.

And I already made the point that perfect objectivity can never be achieved, but it is their job to be as close as possible. There are universal truths that most lifelong gamers can agree to e.g. 30fps is obviously worse than 60fps(not accounting for resolution and genre etc.); yet some publications/developers have even tried to make arguments against that, and some 'gamers' even bought into it.

Objectivity is not a myth, and even though perfect objectivity can never be reached (cause we haven't all had the same experience and history in gaming), it should still be the job of a reviewer to try and get as close as possible.

I don't even mind if they add personal sides notes into their reviews, as long as they make sure it's known that's only their opinion, or whether they feel it actually has an objective affect on the quality of the game. I don't expect them to be perfect, but I expect them to try. It is their job to be knowledgable on the subject.



Shaunodon said:

Video game reviews are not politics. Just having the best argument doesn't mean what you're saying will actually hold true for most people.


You could make the most compelling argument for why the QTEs in Resident Evil 6 actually aided the immersion and made that game a masterpiece, and the people reading could totally buy into it. But once they actually play the game and 90% of them realise the argument was total BS, they're probably not gonna feel like the review did them justice.

And I already made the point that perfect objectivity can never be achieved, but it is their job to be as close as possible. There are universal truths that most lifelong gamers can agree to e.g. 30fps is obviously worse than 60fps(not accounting for resolution and genre etc.); yet some publications/developers have even tried to make arguments against that, and some 'gamers' even bought into it.

Objectivity is not a myth, and even though perfect objectivity can never be reached (cause we haven't all had the same experience and history in gaming), it should still be the job of a reviewer to try and get as close as possible.

I don't even mind if they add personal sides notes into their reviews, as long as they make sure it's known that's only their opinion, or whether they feel it actually has an objective affect on the quality of the game. I don't expect them to be perfect, but I expect them to try. It is their job to be knowledgable on the subject.

Holding true for most people is not what the concept of objectivity is, though. Objectivity is popularized as a concept for holding games to a certain merit that can be seemingly qualified as factual. It's taking art(and before you say "games aren't art", i'm just substituting art for media) and trying to defuse it down to a quantifible science.

Which is ridiculous and obviously can't be done, because the perception of media in the first place requires a bias. We don't percieve media neutrally, we build a bias towards things based on preferences that become established, and over time we learn what we like and don't.

The entire problem with the objective merit is this : People's objective merit is created by a bias in and of itself. It's an opinion that you institute into your system as fact. You can't qualify an objective merit until you decide what standard games should be held up to, and that in and of itself is an opinion.

The example I highlighted is an appeal to popularity. I don't suppose you consider Justin Beiber to be worthy of praise? Your response to this will be "But anyone who knows anything about music will know that Justin Beiber sucks!" but that's just an appeal to authority. None of those appeals are inherently right.

I agree with you that objectivity isn't a myth. I've actually said so on this forum before, though I don't believe I said it in this thread(correct me if i'm wrong). Saying that isn't really meant to be literal. Concepts are concepts by themselves. The objective merit, which is supposed to be a qualifible way of judging art, is a myth in modern application.

I agree with the attitude that a reviewer should try to be as fair as possible. To be as objective as possible is a slippery slope but people seem to use those words as synonym, so I guess I can agree with that. If objectivity was real though and reviewers could all get as close to objectivity as possible, could you imagine how boring reviews would be? It would essentially be multiple reviewers saying the same thing.



Review scores are arbitrary models have have no specific set style. Humans cannot be trusted with complete objectivity but rather are expected to Be as professional as possible conveying their set and specific opinion on aspects of a game and come to a reasonable conclusion  that the eager consumer can find reasonable before purchase. Think of it as a well thought out suggestion. People only use  review scores as a guideline for critical reception. This goes double for aggregates.This helps them know if they have a high chance of gravitating to a game. Nintnedo seems to hit the mark of what makes a game a great in the genres they excel in. They also have mastered the understanding of fun factor which allows for replay value in even their single player games. Few companies ever accomplished this pedigree of development.



Shaunodon said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:
(I know this discussion is about Jim Sterling and other publications like that one that gave BOTW a 5/10, but I extended this comment to bigger sites like IGN as well)

Lol, all these people acting like review publications can only give a game a lower score than the norm for the sake of controversy ...

Wow. People want outlets like IGN to have actual criticism for games like Call of Duty but then don't want unique opinions to be shared or criticism to be given to games that "deserve" the high score people expect. The definition of confirmation bias.

As bad as IGN, other outlets and at times Jim Sterling can be, to expect game reviews to fundamentally echo similar opinions is asking nothing but for your ideals to be reverberated over and over again. The first step to expecting more out of shitty publications is giving them some liberty and allowing them to exercise their potential by tackling games that are harder to critique. If controversial shithead reviewer #2307 gives Mario a 7/10, I'm going to hear him out and say if his arguments are valid or not. Perhaps the best example is IGN's surprisingly great review for Uncharted : The Lost Legacy, in which the response was basically "but but butttttttttt Call of Duty!" - nevermind the fact that people have biases, objectivity doesn't exist, and a majority of commentors probably don't even know if the reviewer ever reviewed a Call of Duty game(He didn't, he never has. yeah yeah Dunkey's video).

Sorry but I like my reviews to be unique and not just chamber pop.

At the time Jim Sterling gave his BOTW review no one else had even given a review lower than 90. The only reason he thought it was ok to give an outlier score of 70(a whole 20 points less than anyone), is because his ego is out of control. Seeing the rest of the scores should have at least given him pause for thought, and maybe a chance to re-evaluate how objective he was actually being.

Whether he conciously believed he was giving the game a score he felt it deserved based on his opinion or not, there is no standard of professionalism to his work. It's all just about him.

No one can be perfectly objective, that's obvious, but it is their job to try and be as close as possible. For Jim to be that far off the mark from everyone else, it should be pretty obvious what he's doing.

There was also the fact that 3 or 4 of his gripes with the game were legitimately proven to be not just wrong but also something he could have fixed himself through a simple button press to literally alleviate it. I've got my doubts that he even PLAYED the game!



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Two 95+ (at least) metacritic games on it's first year.

Best first year for a console? ever?



Valdath said:
Two 95+ (at least) metacritic games on it's first year.

Best first year for a console? ever?

I don't know for that but it's been a joyful ride.

1.
99
User: 9.2
Nov 23, 1998
2.
98
User: 7.4
Sep 20, 2000
3.
98
User: 7.5
Apr 29, 2008
4.
98
User: 8.7
Sep 8, 1999
5.
98
User: 7.9
Apr 29, 2008
6.
97
User: 9.0
Nov 12, 2007
7.
97
User: 9.1
May 23, 2010
8.
97
User: 7.8
Nov 18, 2014
9.
97
User: 8.3
Sep 17, 2013
10.
97
User: 8.3
Sep 17, 2013
11.
97
User: 6.3
Nov 6, 2000
12.
97
User: 8.4
Mar 3, 2017
13.
97
User: 7.4
Oct 28, 2001
14.
97
User: 8.9
May 22, 2000
15.
97
User: 8.3
Nov 18, 2014
16.
97
User: 9.3
Nov 17, 2002
17.
97
User: 8.5
Oct 22, 2001
18.
97
User: 8.6
Nov 14, 2001
19.
97
User: 6.2
Sep 7, 2000
20.
96
User: 9.2
Nov 16, 2004
21.
96
User: 7.6
Apr 14, 2015
22.
96
User: 8.1
Mar 3, 2017
23.
96
User: 8.9
Aug 21, 2007
24.
96
User: 9.1
Aug 25, 1997
25.
96
User: 8.8
Oct 13, 2009
26.
96
User: 9.4
Jan 11, 2005
27.
96
User: 8.9
Oct 10, 2007
28.
96
User: 9.2
Oct 10, 2007
29.
96
User: 8.7
Oct 18, 2011
30.
96
User: 9.1
Apr 29, 1998
31.
96
User: 8.9
Jan 26, 2010
32.
96
User: 9.1
Dec 11, 2006
33.
96
User: 8.5
Nov 11, 2011
34.
96
User: 9.0
Oct 31, 1998
35.
96
User: 8.9
Oct 25, 2005
36.
96
User: 9.0
Mar 24, 2003
37.
96
User: 8.8
Apr 30, 1998
38.
96
User: 8.5
Aug 21, 2007
39.
96
User: 8.7
Nov 12, 2001
40.
96
User: 7.9
Oct 31, 2003
41.
95
User: 9.2
Sep 24, 2000
42.
95
User: 9.0
Oct 26, 2004
43.
95
User: 8.7
Oct 27, 2002
44.
95
User: 6.8
Oct 27, 2008
45.
95
User: 9.0
Nov 17, 2003
46.
95
User: 8.9
May 18, 2010
47.
95
User: 8.4
Jul 9, 2001
48.
95
User: 8.2
Nov 9, 2004
49.
95
User: 9.0
Dec 3, 2002
50.
95
User: 9.2
Oct 25, 2000
51.
95
User: 9.2
Jun 14, 2013
52.
95
User: 9.0
Nov 19, 2006
53.
95
User: 7.5
Aug 12, 2002
54.
95
User: 7.0
May 30, 2001
55.
95
User: 9.1
Jul 29, 2014
56.
95
User: 9.0
Apr 18, 2011
57.
95
User: 9.0
May 18, 2010
58.
95
User: 8.7
Apr 19, 2011
59.
95
User: 7.4
Sep 1, 2015
60.
95
User: 8.4
Apr 19, 2011

If we set it by your standards (95+) we should regroup games by launch year and see if one year has more than 2 games on the same console with a 95+ score. And then see if it corresponds to a console's first year.



Not to rain on anyone's parade but a 95+ score is not guaranteed because one usually harsh critic has given the game a perfect score. It's a good sign for sure but let's not get carried away.



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RolStoppable said:
TruckOSaurus said:
Not to rain on anyone's parade but a 95+ score is not guaranteed because one usually harsh critic has given the game a perfect score. It's a good sign for sure but let's not get carried away.

It's a 3D Mario game that drops during a period where it's the cool thing to openly like Nintendo. A 95+ metascore is a lock, because aside from 3D Zelda games, 3D Mario is the only Nintendo series that is generally acceptable to be liked; even disappointing entries land above 90.

Wait, so is the parade still on or not?



TruckOSaurus said:
Not to rain on anyone's parade but a 95+ score is not guaranteed because one usually harsh critic has given the game a perfect score. It's a good sign for sure but let's not get carried away.

Zelda got 97 though....... 



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