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Forums - General - A $1,000 per month cash handout would grow the U.S economy by $2.5 trillion, new study says

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RolStoppable said:
Pyro as Bill said:

Bill Gates earned his money by stealing an idea and exploiting PC hardware manufacturers by having them engage in price wars with each other while his company Microsoft didn't see any cuts to their own profits. Bill Gates' and Microsoft's history is a long one of using any means to monopolize a market, and attempts to enter other markets by buying themselves into them. When did governments steal his money?

Taxation is theft.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

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RolStoppable said:
Pyro as Bill said:

Taxation is theft.

Then it follows that tax evasion is a noble cause.

I agree.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

DonFerrari said:

Yep. I know of a lot of people in Brazil that makes less than 10k USD/year and have 5 people household. And just in case you don't know Brazil isn't that much cheaper than USA to live.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Brazil

Supporting a family of 5 in the states unassisted on a single minimum wage would be living in abject poverty. 



vivster said:

That is a given anyway but doesn't have anything to do with a basic income.

The problem is higher education isn't for everyone. And not only that, being highly educated in a specialized field does not guarantee you a job in that field. Some fields are much needed but less desirable so even with free education students will choose the fields they want and not necessarily the fields that are needed. Free education is great but it does not solve all real world human problems.

Right now we still have about the same amount of jobs as we have people but that will change in the future. So even if everyone had a university degree, not everyone would have work.

This may sound messed up but if we want to achieve basic income then we should probably start dictating a person's occupation ... 

I feel as if civilization is too optimized for 'happiness' rather than 'profit' which is a big detriment quality of life. If we ever want sustainable minimum guranteed living standards then labour needs to start matching demands, not the other way around ... 

The only reason why the rich keeps amassing more wealth is cause there's too many poor suckers out there who trying to chase their own dreams instead of framing themselves as a net contributor to society ... 

We would have a much better civilization if 70% of our population was either studying science/engineering (these specialties are always in demand since they either increase productivity or quality of life) or having occupation in those fields rather than just 30% of the population carrying the rest ... 

If government has to be the one to provide then it's citizens need to start learning or training hard for these high paying professions and starting making a profit for a government to enable programs such as basic income, healthcare and social security ... 

There has to be some sort of compromise if that's going to be the case ... 



Teeqoz said:

Yeah whoops, forgot about that. It's completely feasible for the vast majority of the human population to be scientists and programmers.

 

Wait...

Well it sucks for those to be left behind since they can't keep up ... (I guess we'll need brain tissue/genetic enhancement or chip implants to get the common human smart enough.)

The sooner we can have the vast majority of our population workforce consist of either scientist or engineer the better it is for the human race ... 



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shikamaru317 said:
Sounds to me like it would just cause a lot of inflation.

 

yes... but surely the guys behind the study didn't forget that little detail... come on... give them some credit...

Ka-pi96 said:
Who's going to be paying an extra $1000 per person tax to afford that then?

the answer is in the study, i didn't read it, but i'm sure that if they did the study the gave the answer to that. from another similar thing some people did for my country and from what i remember, the logic behind it is... the corporations that takes huge profits for having robots doing humans work... sooner or later we are going to have little things to work on and the population of the planet is growing... people will need a income from somewhere... a mechanism needs to be put in place so we can live with litle work or none if the person has no skill or talent or is plain useless just because all the works they could do are already being done by someone else... it's like, if you are fine with having a lower standard you can try to live from  the "handout" but if you have more ambition than the regular joe, you can work and add to the "handout" and have a better life. Basic species survival if you look at it in its core.

in one sentence is...
money moving generate more economic growth than money sitting under a matress



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Ka-pi96 said:
VGPolyglot said:
Let's just skip this step and go full-on towards socialism. This may help short-term, but I believe that in the long run it's going to start diverting back to how it was beforehand.

You mean let's reward people for being lazy and obese instead of working hard and being good at their jobs? Which 3rd world country is hiring you to sink western economies so they can rule the world?

Aeolus451 said:
vivster said:

The moral thing to do is to support the weakest people in your society. You know, the thing that the super wealthy do not do.

You don't understand how this works. The wealthy run businesses and invest their wealth into other businesses and theirs. People are provided products, services and jobs which gives them money in exchange for work. It's a mutually agreed upon symbotic relationship that benefits everyone. What you're talking about is stealing from people who earned their money to apply a temporary band aid and that's not right. The wealthy are not obligated to provide anything to anyone. You can't force them to be piggy banks that provide funding for ill thought-out social programs that only encourages dependence on the government and votes for a certain political party. If you push the wealthy too far, they'll leave country and/or move their wealth/jobs to protect what is rightfully theirs. It's not your money.

Oh yes, let's just give lucrative tax cuts to those poor, oppressed millionaires and billionaires.

Because it worked so well for Kansas!



fatslob-:O said:
Teeqoz said:

Yeah whoops, forgot about that. It's completely feasible for the vast majority of the human population to be scientists and programmers.

 

Wait...

Well it sucks for those to be left behind since they can't keep up ... (I guess we'll need brain tissue/genetic enhancement or chip implants to get the common human smart enough.)

The sooner we can have the vast majority of our population workforce consist of either scientist or engineer the better it is for the human race ... 

So those that can't keep up deserve to live miserable lives? Is that what you are saying?

By the time we can just implant chips in people's brains to improve human brain capacity, there will be no need for humans in there at all. Much easier to improve a pure computer than a computer-human hybrid.



DonFerrari said:
Teeqoz said:

The concept of the Invisible Hand is the principle that people acting for the best of themselves often end up doing more good for society than someone with the goal of improving society. That's the idea anyway. It doesn't require a completely laissez faire market, and it can also count for voting for political actions such as UBI. But honestly, the entire concept of "an invisible hand" flies out the window once you accept that there is no such thing as true altruism anyway.

You are really overestimating the use of human labour in a world where computers are better at literally everything. Why on earth would an entrepreneur need people to do jobs when we are both horribly inefficient and expensive?

All the other times new technology has replaced human jobs, there has always been other tasks humans were still better at. There won't be this time. No point in sticking your head in the sand and pretend like it won't happen. If computers can literally think better than humans, what can a human offer compared to a computer?

And what invisible hand is the government making rules and giving money they have to steal from others before?

There will always be things human will do better. If at one point robots do absolutelly everything better then there won't be any job at all no needs to attend anymore, so we would be post economy and theory of scarcity.

Government enforce the will of the people <- government is elected by the people who vote selfishly. There's your invisible hand.

 

The invisible hand isn't intrisically tied to laissez faire capitalism you know. In fact, the idea of capitalism hadn't even been expressed when Adam Smith coined the term....

And yes, in the medium term, there will be a few things humans will do better, but not enough to employ everyone.



NATO said:
vivster said:

It's called society. Nobody is penalized by having only $1000000 in their bank account instead of $100000000. Especially since that money is earned on the backs of people who work just as hard and only earn a fraction of it.

If you want meritocracy you should also recognize that people who earn a billion do not work harder or are smarter than people who "only" make a million  a year.

Wealth has gotten out of hand and for the good of all society it should be mended.

People that earn billions generally own companies, companies that have employees, employees that have jobs and work for a living. 

It doesn't matter how hard or not a rich person works, expecting them to foot the bill of a crazy leftist socialist nation is fucking stupid, they already pay large amounts in tax, and generally result in the employment of thousands. 

If you want money get off your backside and earn it, use your own strength to climb higher rather than sitting down below shooting at those above you because you think it's unfair. 

I swear, nothing but new age commies. 

Their private wealth has nothing to do with their company.

There are companies that make several billions in a quarter, they are certainly not struggling to pay their employees. In fact they do everything in their power to use every possible legal loophole to  accumulate more wealth and robbing the state of billions in the process.

And guess how those companies are making money. They are making money off of people who are at the lower end of society. And guess who will profit most by poor people having more money. Exactly, companies.

This system can work when you do it right. It cannot work when you try to defend people who do not need defending and spit on people who need help.

There will come a point when there are fewer work places than there are people. And then you can shove your "if they want money they just need to work" attitude.



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