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Forums - General - A $1,000 per month cash handout would grow the U.S economy by $2.5 trillion, new study says

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DonFerrari said:

Sorry but I can only say you are very bad with your expenditures as most people.

Or how would you explain people that have a single form of income, earning minimum wage and still maintain a household of 5 in the same city of you?

Do you even know that minimum wage in itself is an evil thing that bit the poor more than it helps and that you aren't even suppose to live on minimum wage or close to it for more than a few years when entering a job? And also that there is always the option to be self-employed and that doesn't need millions to start?

Most of times is excuses and entitlement.

Is this guy for real?

DonFerrari said:

In USA alone less than 10% of the job positions are minimum wage, so we can't say that there isn't option for people to grow on their careers.

Half of working America makes less than $30k/yr. 



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Teeqoz said:
DonFerrari said:
It is quite funny that over 2 centuries after Industrial Revolution we would come back to ludo rebels.

Who here exactly has stated ludite-ish opinions? Saying that robots and AI will replace human jobs isn't fear, it's fact. That's not robophobia. I embrace robots doing more of the work for us. But the ramifications this has on an economy functioning in the same way as ours does currently would be out of this world. Hence why we need to look at solutions like this, because our current economic system can't handle a 80% unemployment rate.

Thank you. A lot of false equivalencies and straw men being thrown around in here. I look forward to a world where menial labor disappears but we need to adjust for it one way or another. If the skeptics in this thread are right and the job market will compensate for it on its own, then we have nothing to worry about. However if job creation can't keep pace with the explosion in job elimination on the horizon, economics will need to adapt or we'll be in for a world of hurt. 



NATO said:

People that earn billions generally own companies, companies that have employees, employees that have jobs and work for a living. 

It doesn't matter how hard or not a rich person works, expecting them to foot the bill of a crazy leftist socialist nation is fucking stupid, they already pay large amounts in tax, and generally result in the employment of thousands. 

Those same companies can soon (some of them already have) replace their employees with more effective robots, that will strengthen the productivity, increase the income for the company and it's owners. And then they can even save all the money that would have otherwise gone to wages. So unfair to suggest they should give a little back to society...



When are you gonna start paying your debt in meaningful ways?

Pretty much every other country, down to the separate states are shown no mercy when it comes to debt. You americans aren't seeing the writing on the wall. I'm not saying you are the only ones, but if you keep raising the debt the future is gonna be absolutely awful!!!!!

You really think the World Bank is gonna forgive? You think your country is special? Then just wait.



 

 



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NATO said:

And who designs, manufactures, builds, services and maintains these robots? 

They pay a smaller company with few employees for that.



Teeqoz said:
DonFerrari said:

The invisible hand of the market would be more on the people discovering new needs of the market and entrepeneuring on it and opening new companies and those companies will end up employing the ones that didn't had the idea.

The government paying UBI isn't invisible hand at all.

The economy will change, and yes some jobs or even most will be replaced... yet there have been more professions created in the last 10 years than in the previous centuries. I would guess we have gone from like 100 professions from like 10 mileniums to over 1000 in the last couple decades.

just a small and quick source https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/aug/17/technology-created-more-jobs-than-destroyed-140-years-data-census


The concept of the Invisible Hand is the principle that people acting for the best of themselves often end up doing more good for society than someone with the goal of improving society. That's the idea anyway. It doesn't require a completely laissez faire market, and it can also count for voting for political actions such as UBI. But honestly, the entire concept of "an invisible hand" flies out the window once you accept that there is no such thing as true altruism anyway.

You are really overestimating the use of human labour in a world where computers are better at literally everything. Why on earth would an entrepreneur need people to do jobs when we are both horribly inefficient and expensive?

All the other times new technology has replaced human jobs, there has always been other tasks humans were still better at. There won't be this time. No point in sticking your head in the sand and pretend like it won't happen. If computers can literally think better than humans, what can a human offer compared to a computer?

And what invisible hand is the government making rules and giving money they have to steal from others before?

There will always be things human will do better. If at one point robots do absolutelly everything better then there won't be any job at all no needs to attend anymore, so we would be post economy and theory of scarcity.

TallSilhouette said:
DonFerrari said:

Sorry but I can only say you are very bad with your expenditures as most people.

Or how would you explain people that have a single form of income, earning minimum wage and still maintain a household of 5 in the same city of you?

Do you even know that minimum wage in itself is an evil thing that bit the poor more than it helps and that you aren't even suppose to live on minimum wage or close to it for more than a few years when entering a job? And also that there is always the option to be self-employed and that doesn't need millions to start?

Most of times is excuses and entitlement.

Is this guy for real?

DonFerrari said:

In USA alone less than 10% of the job positions are minimum wage, so we can't say that there isn't option for people to grow on their careers.

Half of working America makes less than $30k/yr. 

Yep. I know of a lot of people in Brazil that makes less than 10k USD/year and have 5 people household. And just in case you don't know Brazil isn't that much cheaper than USA to live.

Also 30k/y is quite more than minimum wage. And this UBI would equate to more than 1/3 of the wage of half the working america and accounting for non working then the account of handing out 12k per person/year becomes even more silly.

TallSilhouette said:

 

Teeqoz said:

Who here exactly has stated ludite-ish opinions? Saying that robots and AI will replace human jobs isn't fear, it's fact. That's not robophobia. I embrace robots doing more of the work for us. But the ramifications this has on an economy functioning in the same way as ours does currently would be out of this world. Hence why we need to look at solutions like this, because our current economic system can't handle a 80% unemployment rate.

Thank you. A lot of false equivalencies and straw men being thrown around in here. I look forward to a world where menial labor disappears but we need to adjust for it one way or another. If the skeptics in this thread are right and the job market will compensate for it on its own, then we have nothing to worry about. However if job creation can't keep pace with the explosion in job elimination on the horizon, economics will need to adapt or we'll be in for a world of hurt. 

Yep we will compensate. If it really happens that all work will be obsolete the market will adapt such as it have been doing at each evolution.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

vivster said:
Aeolus451 said:

So you're saying to steal from Tom to give to Paul? That makes so much sense because it's the moral thing to do.

The moral thing to do is to support the weakest people in your society. You know, the thing that the super wealthy do not do.

You don't understand how this works. The wealthy run businesses and invest their wealth into other businesses and theirs. People are provided products, services and jobs which gives them money in exchange for work. It's a mutually agreed upon symbotic relationship that benefits everyone. What you're talking about is stealing from people who earned their money to apply a temporary band aid and that's not right. The wealthy are not obligated to provide anything to anyone. You can't force them to be piggy banks that provide funding for ill thought-out social programs that only encourages dependence on the government and votes for a certain political party. If you push the wealthy too far, they'll leave country and/or move their wealth/jobs to protect what is rightfully theirs. It's not your money.



RolStoppable said:
Pyro as Bill said:

A billionairre becomes a billionairre by providing products and services that other people want. If it's done through free trade and not some green energy government subsidy, then who have they hurt/exploited?

"that whoever could make two ears of corn, or two blades of grass, to grow upon a spot of ground where only one grew before, would deserve better of mankind, and do more essential service to his country, than the whole race of politicians put together."

Capitalism 101 - Prices fall making everyone richer. You don't have to work as many hours for the same goods/services.

The robophobia in this thread is scary. If leftists had the first clue about free trade and the damage they cause by getting in it's way, they wouldn't be leftists.

Huh? Multinational corporations and billionaires have so much money because they shuffle around the revenue and thus avoid to pay a lot of taxes in a lot of countries.

Before they shuffled the money, how did they get it in the first place? I'm not talking about Russian oligarchs or Middle East dictators. Bill Gates earnt his wealth by providing a product/service that millions wanted, how do you feel morally about western governments stealing his money given he's now using his wealth to cure disease? Do you think it's acceptable that first worlders stole his wealth to pay for their own healthcare to the detriment of third worlders with malaria?

 Meanwhile, the common man pays his taxes and does his fair share of contributing to the society. The obscenely rich are most definitely exploiting the financial systems everywhere they go. Free trade agreements in and of themselves are commonly set up to be exploits to make the rich richer.

I agree FTAs are usually protectionist in some way. If two people want to trade with each other there's no need for the government to stick it's nose in especially when they're likely to remove most/all of the value in the trade.

It's not like proper taxpaying and an idea like UBI would put rich people on the same level as the people at the bottom. Some people in this thread have the attitude of "I can't be happy if nobody else has to suffer." Something as simplified as UBI might not be the solution, but the distribution of wealth is similar to the distribution of food in this world; there's actually enough for everyone to have something, but the systems in place are so messed up that many people have next to nothing.

Free marketeers tend to have an awful bedside manner but it's because we know trade is the best way to eliminate poverty/advance humanity. I don't know anyone who doesn't want to financially support those who aren't able but that doesn't include lazy fuckers who think we're going to pay for their premium sports subscriptions.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

NATO said:
Vinther1991 said:

Those same companies can soon (some of them already have) replace their employees with more effective robots, that will strengthen the productivity, increase the income for the company and it's owners. And then they can even save all the money that would have otherwise gone to wages. So unfair to suggest they should give a little back to society...

And who designs, manufactures, builds, services and maintains these robots? 

More robots.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!