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Forums - Politics - Trump Announces Ban on Transgender People in US Military

 

You support this?

No. 206 29.68%
 
Yes. 311 44.81%
 
^ What the hell is wrong ... 177 25.50%
 
Total:694
Aeolus451 on 27 July 2017
SpokenTruth said:
Aeolus451 said:

Not if they're told they have to include them. A progressive would push pentagon to change standands to accommodate them if they had to.  Alot of people who have mental issues are denied entry into the military and often kicked out if a mental problem (when it's bad enough) developes while in the military. 

That last bit is correct and that's ALL it should be.   If a person serving or attempting to enlist has a mental condition that precludes them from service, then there you have it.   But a blanket statement that they all (transgenders) have a mental disorder to start with that should preclude them from military service in fallacious and not based on any valid evidence. 

I listed plenty of reasons why not to. If a person has too many or certain physical issues, mental issues or problems in their life., they'll be denied entry or kicked out. Sometimes it's because a person's issue(s) are too costly or would interfer with their duties too much or be too problematic to accomidate for. Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. Alot of mental disorders are grounds for denying entry because of those reasons I listed before this sentence. I know life is not fair to people with mental disorders and it sucks but the military is not some baseball team where we should try to include everyone that wants in. The military serves an important function for our country and it has to be pragmatic about these things. Being allowed into the military is not a right. They have to pick the best people suited for these roles.



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NintendoPie on 27 July 2017
SpokenTruth said:
Trump doesn't want transgenders in the military because he equates all transgender soldiers to Bradley Manning. Manning, a former transgender soldier now known as Chelsea Manning, was responsible for the massive Wikileaks cables.

This is how Trump thinks. He collectivizes entire groups based on the illicit actions of a few and then does all he can to disparage them. To him, the only infallible group are rich, white billionaires in the US.

Is there proof of this connection?



TallSilhouette on 27 July 2017
Aeolus451 said:
SpokenTruth said:

That last bit is correct and that's ALL it should be.   If a person serving or attempting to enlist has a mental condition that precludes them from service, then there you have it.   But a blanket statement that they all (transgenders) have a mental disorder to start with that should preclude them from military service in fallacious and not based on any valid evidence. 

I listed plenty of reasons why not to. If a person has too many or certain physical issues, mental issues or problems in their life., they'll be denied entry or kicked out. Sometimes it's because a person's issue(s) are too costly or would interfer with their duties too much or be too problematic to accomidate for. Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. Alot of mental disorders are grounds for denying entry because of those reasons I listed before this sentence. I know life is not fair to people with mental disorders and it sucks but the military is not some baseball team where we should try to include everyone that wants in. The military serves an important function for our country and it has to be pragmatic about these things. Being allowed into the military is not a right. They have to pick the best people suited for these roles.

Again, what does this have to do with trans people who don't have mental disorders? Why would you ban those that are mentally and physically sound?



Aeolus451 on 27 July 2017
mizzou_guy said:
Aeolus451 said:

Decades? You're talking out of your ass. In 2016, obama told the pentagon to lift the ban on trans being allowed into the military and they had until july 2017 to finish implementing the change. So yes it basically yesterday.

Don't say there's no proof of their mental health issues when they have a very high suicide rate and the root of their issues is gender dysphoria which is a mental disorder which in turn causes other mental issues. 

They've been there for decades, yes.  They just had to keep things to themselves.  However, they have contributed highly to our military.  Please watch this:

Edit:  Sorry, I don't know how to get the video embedding to work:

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/k3vh0c/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-exclusive---transgender-veterans-react-to-trump-s-trans-military-ban

Trans is different than a sexual orientation. They had gender dysphoria and were quiet about it but they weren't technically trans. They acted and looked like the gender they were born as so a good chunk of the problems that would come from trans being in the military wouldn't happen. I get what you're saying but my points still stand. 



Aeolus451 on 27 July 2017
TallSilhouette said:
Aeolus451 said:

I listed plenty of reasons why not to. If a person has too many or certain physical issues, mental issues or problems in their life., they'll be denied entry or kicked out. Sometimes it's because a person's issue(s) are too costly or would interfer with their duties too much or be too problematic to accomidate for. Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. Alot of mental disorders are grounds for denying entry because of those reasons I listed before this sentence. I know life is not fair to people with mental disorders and it sucks but the military is not some baseball team where we should try to include everyone that wants in. The military serves an important function for our country and it has to be pragmatic about these things. Being allowed into the military is not a right. They have to pick the best people suited for these roles.

Again, what does this have to do with trans people who don't have mental disorders? Why would you ban those that are mentally and physically sound?

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. People with that disorder have a lot of mental issues that accompany it like how other disorders do.



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TallSilhouette on 27 July 2017
Aeolus451 said:
TallSilhouette said:

Again, what does this have to do with trans people who don't have mental disorders? Why would you ban those that are mentally and physically sound?

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. People with that disorder have a lot of mental issues that accompany it like how other disorders do.
Aeolus451 said:
TruckOSaurus said:

Your statement sums up to "I'm not transphobic but they're all mentally unstable".

I didn't say all, Sherlock. Statistically, they have higher rates of suicides and mental issues. #notall

Pick one.



Aeolus451 on 27 July 2017
mizzou_guy said:
Aeolus451 said:

I'm not generalizing but stating a statistically fact. They have alot higher rates of suicide compared to regular people. They also have rates of mental issues stemming from their dysphoria. You're welcome to counter to me on that without feelz.

They were allowed in because they were trans, not because they were qualified per se. A regular person who has their level of mental health issues wouldn't be allowed in. Isn't that how identity politics work? They're likely not many at all in the military given the time frame between obama telling the pentagon to let them to when they have to fully implement the change which around now.

They're simply not fit to be in the miliary where pragmatism, unit cohesiveness and efficiency matter. It has to function as a well oiled machine to serve it's intended function. The US military is not like some of Europe's militaries where they're a token force that's suffering from atrophy not because there's peace but because someone else is defending/furthering their interests for them.

Can you provide some links or proof of some kind to backup the part I bolded?

Condsidering how recently they were allowed in, there's no studies on anything close I could use but to find out, there would have to an internal investigation of some kind to find out. 

The reason why I said that though is because it's being done in businesses to some extent. Some companies hire people based on their identity rather than their qualifications. So I could see the same with the military if their bosses told them they need to let in more trans people. The military has been known to lighten entry requirements based on their needs like being at war or a republican is in office. So it's not outlandish for me to say that happened to some extent. i would like to see studies done with trans and the military so there's more data on it so we could settle this sort of stuff once and for all. 



Aeolus451 on 27 July 2017
TallSilhouette said:
Aeolus451 said:

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. People with that disorder have a lot of mental issues that accompany it like how other disorders do.
Aeolus451 said:

I didn't say all, Sherlock. Statistically, they have higher rates of suicides and mental issues. #notall

Pick one.

Both. i should have put a "tend to" in the upper one for clarity's sake. Pointing out something like that is not gonna destroy my points though. You're welcome to have at it though.



Suky on 27 July 2017

I simply don't aprove all things that this president do or say but definitively this was finally something that comes out from common sense an lucidity.To stop the madness out of those who have mental issues every now and then is a good thing.



mizzou_guy on 27 July 2017
Aeolus451 said:
mizzou_guy said:

They've been there for decades, yes.  They just had to keep things to themselves.  However, they have contributed highly to our military.  Please watch this:

Edit:  Sorry, I don't know how to get the video embedding to work:

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/k3vh0c/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-exclusive---transgender-veterans-react-to-trump-s-trans-military-ban

Trans is different than a sexual orientation. They had gender dysphoria and were quiet about it but they weren't technically trans. They acted and looked like the gender they were born as so a good chunk of the problems that would come from trans being in the military wouldn't happen. I get what you're saying but my points still stand. 

I didn't mention sexual orientation.  These people were transgender while in the military, but due to don't ask don't tell, they were not able to be themselves at work.  Not revealing something at work doesn't mean you aren't that person.  For example, I'm gay, but I don't tell everyone at work I'm gay, but that doesn't make me less gay.

The worst part about this is that after don't ask, don't tell was repealed, these people felt safe about coming out.  Now, the new administration is suddenly saying they're not allowed to be in the military.  Well, once you've outed yourself, there's not shoving the secrets back into the closet, so it's almost like an entrapment scenario.

The main point of posting that video is to display that there are transgender people who contribute greatly to our military.  Both of those individuals had highly respected roles and received recognition for their work.  Their transgender identity never interfered with either of their jobs.  The only time it became a factor was when other people made their private lives their business.