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Forums - Politics Discussion - Van attacks people outside of mosque in London

Scoobes on 24 June 2017
Illusion said:
Hedra42 said:

In isolation, this brings up some salient points. However, they're largely irrelevant to the discussion you replied to about the safety of living in London compared with places where terrorist attacks and/or gun crime are the norm. And while Teeqoz didn't mention other types of violent crime in his argument, he is right that there does need to be a greater sense of perspective when looking at terrorist incidents in the west.

We shouldn't forget that the attention given to this most recent attack in London has enabled far-right elements to celebrate it, and islamists to use it as propaganda to justify their cause. Likewise, it's a reasonable assumption that the intense coverage of the earlier incidents in Westminster, Manchester and London Bridge probably incited this most recent one.

That doesn't mean coverage should be suppressed or the issues ignored. Atrocities need to be reported, and they need to be talked about, don't get me wrong. But blowing it out of proportion only plays into the hands of terrorists on both sides.

I don't pretend to have the answer on how to perform that balancing act, but when I see the latest headlines sometimes, I have to wonder.

For example, this morning, there have been live updates on BBC about a man being tasered for waving a shoehorn about outside a mosque at 1.am. I mean, live updates? For a shoehorn? Really? Would this have even made the news had the van attack not happened? Would it have been covered if the shoehorn had been waved outside a supermarket instead? Would the guy with the shoehorn even have bothered, had he not read about the van attack?

Perspective is important, and is so easy to lose.

The problem is that terrorism is getting so bad that it does actually justify the media coverage that it is recieving, it's just that the media coverage of terrorism refuses to address the route cause, namely: the actions of our corrupt leaders and elites. I have a problem with people acting as though terrorism is just another aspect of living in a big city, like gang violence, domestic abuse, etc... It's not, but those in power want us to think that this is the case.  For the better part of a century our societies were largely free from terror and yet if you look at recent trends, each year terrorism is getting worse and worse:

Err... what?!

Terrorism has been a problem for well over a century. The only difference is the source of the terror and the tactics used (suicide bombing is now far more common). In the UK we've had far worse times during the days of the troubles and the origins of that campaign can be traced back to the 1840s. For the sake of comparison:

The coverage in the Western media really is blown out of proportion when you consider you're still more likely to get killed by a dog than by terrorists (in the West, the Middle East is a different story). Stuff like gang violence and domestic abuse are far bigger and more common social problems but only get reported in the most shocking of circumstances.  




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Illusion on 24 June 2017
Scoobes said:

Err... what?!

Terrorism has been a problem for well over a century. The only difference is the source of the terror and the tactics used (suicide bombing is now far more common). In the UK we've had far worse times during the days of the troubles and the origins of that campaign can be traced back to the 1840s. For the sake of comparison:

The coverage in the Western media really is blown out of proportion when you consider you're still more likely to get killed by a dog than by terrorists (in the West, the Middle East is a different story). Stuff like gang violence and domestic abuse are far bigger and more common social problems but only get reported in the most shocking of circumstances.  

I understand, I was thinking about terrorism in terms of the form that we are seeing today but you are correct we have had terrorists in some form or another probably since the beginning of time and I did forget about the 20th century conflicts in places like Ireland.  That said, look at how the numbers in your graph have dropped off towards the end of the 20th century.  Do you think that European societies managed to accomplish this by just accepting terrorism and saying that more people die from dog bites?  I don't know UK history, but I suspect that the people asked some very difficult, uncomfortable and likely, at the time, politicall incorrect questions about the root cause of those conflicts and then moved forward to address the problems.  Why is is politically incorrect for us to question policies such as open borders?  Why do countries like Japan and Poland (who have not adopted liberal policies on immigration) not have issues with radical Islamic terror right now?

The problem is only going to get worse as long we continue to tow the line of political correctness.  You cannot deny that the power structure does not want us to question their responsibility for the current terrorist crisis and they lump all of their critics under the homogeneous label of "racist" to end the debate.  While the media and our leaders talk about terrorist attacks they will not speak the root cause of terror which is their own irresponsibility towards the citizens that they are sworn to protect.  You can see the line inching back up to the levels of the 1970's in your graph.  Addressing this problem will require that we move outside of our comfort zone and admit some pretty difficult realities about things we accepted as true all of our lives (just like the Catholics and Protestants had to do in Ireland).  Are we willing to question political correctness or will we let that line continue to move upward?  Maybe we should actually try listening to speeches from people like Trump to see if they are actually racist, rather then just trusting the mainstream media to tell us the truth.



Soundwave on 24 June 2017
Illusion said:
Scoobes said:

Err... what?!

Terrorism has been a problem for well over a century. The only difference is the source of the terror and the tactics used (suicide bombing is now far more common). In the UK we've had far worse times during the days of the troubles and the origins of that campaign can be traced back to the 1840s. For the sake of comparison:

The coverage in the Western media really is blown out of proportion when you consider you're still more likely to get killed by a dog than by terrorists (in the West, the Middle East is a different story). Stuff like gang violence and domestic abuse are far bigger and more common social problems but only get reported in the most shocking of circumstances.  

I understand, I was thinking about terrorism in terms of the form that we are seeing today but you are correct we have had terrorists in some form or another probably since the beginning of time and I did forget about the 20th century conflicts in places like Ireland.  That said, look at how the numbers in your graph have dropped off towards the end of the 20th century.  Do you think that European societies managed to accomplish this by just accepting terrorism and saying that more people die from dog bites?  I don't know UK history, but I suspect that the people asked some very difficult, uncomfortable and likely, at the time, politicall incorrect questions about the root cause of those conflicts and then moved forward to address the problems.  Why is is politically incorrect for us to question policies such as open borders?  Why do countries like Japan and Poland (who have not adopted liberal policies on immigration) not have issues with radical Islamic terror right now?

The problem is only going to get worse as long we continue to tow the line of political correctness.  You cannot deny that the power structure does not want us to question their responsibility for the current terrorist crisis and they lump all of their critics under the homogeneous label of "racist" to end the debate.  While the media and our leaders talk about terrorist attacks they will not speak the root cause of terror which is their own irresponsibility towards the citizens that they are sworn to protect.  You can see the line inching back up to the levels of the 1970's in your graph.  Addressing this problem will require that we move outside of our comfort zone and admit some pretty difficult realities about things we accepted as true all of our lives (just like the Catholics and Protestants had to do in Ireland).  Are we willing to question political correctness or will we let that line continue to move upward?  Maybe we should actually try listening to speeches from people like Trump to see if they are actually racist, rather then just trusting the mainstream media to tell us the truth.

Which terror attacks have Mexicans committed?

Why is Trump proposing a travel ban on countries where none of the terror attack on US soil have come from, yet he is a-ok with Saudi Arabia and the like?

Trump is a clown who manipulates hot button issues to his own benefit like you would expect a reality TV conman to do to weak minded masses (and I use the term "masses" lightly since he actually lost the popular vote). 



Hedra42 on 25 June 2017
Illusion said:
Scoobes said:

Err... what?!

Terrorism has been a problem for well over a century. The only difference is the source of the terror and the tactics used (suicide bombing is now far more common). In the UK we've had far worse times during the days of the troubles and the origins of that campaign can be traced back to the 1840s. For the sake of comparison:

(Graph)

The coverage in the Western media really is blown out of proportion when you consider you're still more likely to get killed by a dog than by terrorists (in the West, the Middle East is a different story). Stuff like gang violence and domestic abuse are far bigger and more common social problems but only get reported in the most shocking of circumstances. 

  

I understand, I was thinking about terrorism in terms of the form that we are seeing today but you are correct we have had terrorists in some form or another probably since the beginning of time and I did forget about the 20th century conflicts in places like Ireland.  That said, look at how the numbers in your graph have dropped off towards the end of the 20th century.  Do you think that European societies managed to accomplish this by just accepting terrorism and saying that more people die from dog bites?  I don't know UK history, but I suspect that the people asked some very difficult, uncomfortable and likely, at the time, politicall incorrect questions about the root cause of those conflicts and then moved forward to address the problems.  Why is is politically incorrect for us to question policies such as open borders?  Why do countries like Japan and Poland (who have not adopted liberal policies on immigration) not have issues with radical Islamic terror right now?

The problem is only going to get worse as long we continue to tow the line of political correctness.  You cannot deny that the power structure does not want us to question their responsibility for the current terrorist crisis and they lump all of their critics under the homogeneous label of "racist" to end the debate.  While the media and our leaders talk about terrorist attacks they will not speak the root cause of terror which is their own irresponsibility towards the citizens that they are sworn to protect.  You can see the line inching back up to the levels of the 1970's in your graph.  Addressing this problem will require that we move outside of our comfort zone and admit some pretty difficult realities about things we accepted as true all of our lives (just like the Catholics and Protestants had to do in Ireland).  Are we willing to question political correctness or will we let that line continue to move upward?  Maybe we should actually try listening to speeches from people like Trump to see if they are actually racist, rather then just trusting the mainstream media to tell us the truth.

I suggest you research the situations behind the graph before commenting on them, and in particular the history of the Northern Ireland conflicts and the process that all sides have been through (and continue to go through) - to even get to the point it's at today.

Getting out of comfort zones and admitting difficult truths is an important part of any kind of reconcilliation. But it's getting out of comfort zones and admiting difficult truths  that people like Trump don't want to do. In fact, Trump wants the complete opposite - he wants to isolate his precious comfort zone from the rest of the world and keep out anyone he thinks that could damage it, whether there's evidence they may do so not.

Opening borders in Europe to refugees was the right humanitarian thing to do, although it could and should have been much better planned, controlled and managed, IMHO. But if you think opening those borders caused terrorism as we see it today, then you're sorely mistaken. Go do the research.

And no, European societies have never accepted terrorism. But they are intelligent enough to know that the risk of being killed by a terrorist is still extremely low when compared with the risks of day-to-day life. If they weren't wise to this fact - if they didn't keep it in perspective - by now they'd have crumbled and given in to the fear that the terrorists want to instill. That doesn't mean terrorism isn't taken seriously - it is. However, dealing with ad-hoc terrorists and preventing terrorist acts is only dealing wih the symptom, and not addressing the root cause.

Your assumption that our leaders' "irresponsibility towards the citizens that they are sworn to protect", is the root cause of terror is laughable.  Were you not aware that the root cause of the terror we see today originates from problems in the Middle East that have been exacerbated and complicated by western intervention in recent times? It's a hugely complex problem. Again, go do the research.

Having everyone on all sides get out of their comfort zones, admit the difficult realities and then sit down and resolve the matter would be hugely challenging but a far more effective way at eliminating that root cause. If you do the research I suggest, you may find some difficult realities you may need to accept for yourself. And you'll see there's a lot more to the situation than people like Trump are able to (or are willing to) comprehend.



Scoobes on 25 June 2017
Illusion said:
Scoobes said:

Err... what?!

Terrorism has been a problem for well over a century. The only difference is the source of the terror and the tactics used (suicide bombing is now far more common). In the UK we've had far worse times during the days of the troubles and the origins of that campaign can be traced back to the 1840s. For the sake of comparison:

The coverage in the Western media really is blown out of proportion when you consider you're still more likely to get killed by a dog than by terrorists (in the West, the Middle East is a different story). Stuff like gang violence and domestic abuse are far bigger and more common social problems but only get reported in the most shocking of circumstances.  

I understand, I was thinking about terrorism in terms of the form that we are seeing today but you are correct we have had terrorists in some form or another probably since the beginning of time and I did forget about the 20th century conflicts in places like Ireland.  That said, look at how the numbers in your graph have dropped off towards the end of the 20th century.  Do you think that European societies managed to accomplish this by just accepting terrorism and saying that more people die from dog bites?  I don't know UK history, but I suspect that the people asked some very difficult, uncomfortable and likely, at the time, politicall incorrect questions about the root cause of those conflicts and then moved forward to address the problems.  Why is is politically incorrect for us to question policies such as open borders?  Why do countries like Japan and Poland (who have not adopted liberal policies on immigration) not have issues with radical Islamic terror right now?

The problem is only going to get worse as long we continue to tow the line of political correctness.  You cannot deny that the power structure does not want us to question their responsibility for the current terrorist crisis and they lump all of their critics under the homogeneous label of "racist" to end the debate.  While the media and our leaders talk about terrorist attacks they will not speak the root cause of terror which is their own irresponsibility towards the citizens that they are sworn to protect.  You can see the line inching back up to the levels of the 1970's in your graph.  Addressing this problem will require that we move outside of our comfort zone and admit some pretty difficult realities about things we accepted as true all of our lives (just like the Catholics and Protestants had to do in Ireland).  Are we willing to question political correctness or will we let that line continue to move upward?  Maybe we should actually try listening to speeches from people like Trump to see if they are actually racist, rather then just trusting the mainstream media to tell us the truth.

Check Hedra42's reply as he covers a lot of what I was going to say. I will add that UK /Ireland situation was exacerbated when the government took a more hardline approach, not too disimilar from what you're advocating from people like Trump. What did happen was a less militant approach; a dialogue was opened and a fractious peace esatablished which is harder to do in today's situation (I'm not sure where you'd even start with the likes of ISIS). 

I agree people need to start looking out of their comfort zone but your immigration argument is also rather backward as the vast majority of terrorists in the West are home-grown, so stopping immigrants from certain countries is next to useless. If you want to prevent terror at home then you need to prevent radicalisation which tends to happen online or in the dark web. This means spending more money on counter-terror agents to pose online and having more analysts to trace and shut down sites/users that are acting to brainwash people into mass murderers. More also needs to be done to ensure all citizens living standards are at a decent level as poverty plays just as large a role in how likely someone is to go looking for answers in all the wrong places. 

Lastly, Poland is in the EU so they do actually have "open" borders. They've had some arguments over how many refugees they're willing to accept, but assylum seeking is a completely different matter as they should be tracked far closer than normal immigrants. 




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