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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump Paris Meta-Decision

 

Should Trump stay or not?

Yes, stay 119 50.42%
 
No, don't stay 102 43.22%
 
Not sure 15 6.36%
 
Total:236
IsawYoshi said:
Superman4 said:

Spoken like a true democrat. Why the fuck should we need to help everyone else by giving them money? How many Solar Panels will 100 billion buy in the US for its citizens? How about we focus on us and let the other countries focus on themselves. Then once all of the big countries like the US, Russia, China etc. have our climate efforts realized, we can assist everyone else and stop throwing money to a worthless cause.

The US should help because unless everyone chips in we'll face climate changes that will ruin america just as much as they will ruin developing countries. Seeing as the money can be spent more effectively in poorer countries it's also a worthwhile payment. It's also got something to do with the fact that in general developing countries release far less pollution compared to developed countries, and for that we should try to help them out with the mess we are making. 

Or we focus on not making the mess in the first place and directly support areas affected by us, not put our money in a pot and not know hwere any of it goes.



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Leadified said:

The problem with Trump leaving the Paris Agreement is inevitably when there will be a Democrat in the White House and they sign a new climate agreement; the terms will mostly likely be more harsh than Paris. On top of that, American coal companies lose overall influence to European and Chinese rivals that would dictate the rules.

I understand the appeal of Trump's America First policy but it couldn't have come at a worse possible time with a resurgent Russia and rising China.

And how is that exactly bad?

First of all how is Russia exactly rising? It has only 0.5% growth recently, dueto to the sanctions and the low oil price. And even if, how is Russia or China rising any way different than America and the West rising, or anyone else?



Superman4 said:
IsawYoshi said:

The US should help because unless everyone chips in we'll face climate changes that will ruin america just as much as they will ruin developing countries. Seeing as the money can be spent more effectively in poorer countries it's also a worthwhile payment. It's also got something to do with the fact that in general developing countries release far less pollution compared to developed countries, and for that we should try to help them out with the mess we are making. 

Or we focus on not making the mess in the first place and directly support areas affected by us, not put our money in a pot and not know hwere any of it goes.

You continue to say that the US don't know where the money goes but this is simply not true. When giving money to the fund created by the paris agreement there are first and foremost some general rules of where the money is supposed to go, which the US is aware of assuming they read the treaty they signed and now are agains, and furthermore the specific investments are also not secret, so when the investments are done the information will be there for the US president to see. 

 

All areas are affected by you because global warming is a global effect. I know, judging by the name one would think the pollution made in the US only affected you guys, but it turns out that the word global actually refers to a worldwide phenomenon. 



Ruler said:
Leadified said:

The problem with Trump leaving the Paris Agreement is inevitably when there will be a Democrat in the White House and they sign a new climate agreement; the terms will mostly likely be more harsh than Paris. On top of that, American coal companies lose overall influence to European and Chinese rivals that would dictate the rules.

I understand the appeal of Trump's America First policy but it couldn't have come at a worse possible time with a resurgent Russia and rising China.

And how is that exactly bad?

First of all how is Russia exactly rising? It has only 0.5% growth recently, dueto to the sanctions and the low oil price. And even if, how is Russia or China rising any way different than America and the West rising, or anyone else?

Declining American influence is bad for America. I'm not taking sides whether I think this is good or bad.

Sanctions won't last forever and continental Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe. It's a very large country with a large amount of natural resources and growing foreign influence. It's not the Soviet Union but not as weak as the media wants you to believe.



robzo100 said:
palou said: In a case such as global warming, where the effect and effort is spread out between several members, each player acting individually in their own interest will lead to a poor global result.

I won't go into detail since the post right above me that I replied to covers this. Individual efforts overlap government efforts. If the government puts pollution-restricting regulations on cars it would have had the same effect as if the individual themselves decided to carry the same amount of responsibility they ask of the government and decide not to buy said car.

The individuals have all the power they need, and between socializing and the internet there is no reason they can't make informed decisions on pollution-related lifestyle choices.

I do think that you are misunderstanding something. 

This is a classic prisoner's dillema. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

 

Starting off with the hypothesis that people are selfish: (as was proven by the failure of the communist experiment)

 

Suppose we have a car, costing 10 000$ less, but releasing pollutants in the atmosphere that reduce the average human lifespan by 0.1 seconds.

For each individual, driving this car is logical; The impact of saving 10 000$ is probably worth 0.1 seconds of life.

 

So, all 2 000 000 000 people purchasing a car , worldwide, choose this option

 

The result is that everyone saved 10 000$, while also, in average, people live 6 years 4 months less. 

 

Most people would agree that spending 10 000$ and living 6 years 4 months more would have been preferable. Nonetheless, the less preferable option appeared, while everyone made logical decisions.

 

 

Of course, the Paris accord is more complicated.

 

However, a very general rule of Game Theory, a single rational player (unit that makes decisions) always optimizes collective interest better or equal to individual players optimizing their own interest.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

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Superman4 said:
WolfpackN64 said:

You do know China is already ahead of the US in cutting emissions and will at this rate only continue to humaliate the US.

You do know that China still out polutes the US by a considerable margin? Just because they have lowered it by a bigger percentage than the US doesnt mean they are beating the US. They started from farther out than we did. China has a big smog problem, somthing the US has gotten under control with Catalytic converters, unfortunatly Catalytic converters add to green house gasses so less smog and more global warming.

They have a bigger smog problem, but they are already ahead of the US in green energy production and invest much more in green energy.



palou said: This is a classic prisoner's dillema. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

I skimmed too much, apologies. This is certainly valid. But in a way, just thinking right here on the spot, it may support my perspective.

A fair rebuttal, but it's more of a solution to the problem of climate change then a barricade. Right? By noticing this phenomenon we can then be conscious of it and actively fight against it. It's the knowledge of these kinds of phenomenon that allow us to make more informed decisions when it comes to the specifics that individuals(in my individualistic framework) have to make (buying/lifestyle choices, etc. or the example of car-dillemma you illustrated).

It's legitimate, but I don't see it running counter to a libertarian framework.



robzo100 said:
palou said: This is a classic prisoner's dillema. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

I skimmed too much, apologies. This is certainly valid. But in a way, just thinking right here on the spot, it may support my perspective.

A fair rebuttal, but it's more of a solution to the problem of climate change then a barricade. Right? By noticing this phenomenon we can then be conscious of it and actively fight against it. It's the knowledge of these kinds of phenomenon that allow us to make more informed decisions when it comes to the specifics that individuals(in my individualistic framework) have to make (buying/lifestyle choices, etc. or the example of car-dillemma you illustrated).

It's legitimate, but I don't see it running counter to a libertarian framework.

Regardless of if we are conscious of the phenomen or not, without an agreement of any kind, stated or not, it will always be more logical to act against the collective wellbeing. Rellying on the good will of individuals is a catastrophe bound to happen (as the heavy fall of productivity in all attempted communist states has proven.) 

 

I do not necessarily see the Paris Agreement, or anything similar, as being against libertarian principles. It is simply a collective aknowledgment that it would be in the interest of all if all participated. Each party has the power to break the agreement for all, but the nash equilibrium, with rational players, makes each member continue participating. Trump at least somewhat destabilized this equilibrium, which could lead other "players" to go back to their direct individual interests, instead of making agreements with others

 

Of course, in practice, people aren't rational, which makes game theory a much, much harder subject. The math is pretty beautiful, though.

 

In the end, I will always fundementaly be in disagreement with Libertarians; as I do not consider Liberty to be a fundemental part of morality, but mearly a tool. I believe in capitalism, and more specifically, in competition, as it does follow a sound mathematical model; however, it is also mathematicaly unquestionable that there are several instances where limiting the choices of individuals does bring to a greater collctive productivity/happiness. 

I believe that this gives the right to breach the liberty of individuals; but I respect that some could disagree with that.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

IsawYoshi said:
Superman4 said:

Or we focus on not making the mess in the first place and directly support areas affected by us, not put our money in a pot and not know hwere any of it goes.

You continue to say that the US don't know where the money goes but this is simply not true. When giving money to the fund created by the paris agreement there are first and foremost some general rules of where the money is supposed to go, which the US is aware of assuming they read the treaty they signed and now are agains, and furthermore the specific investments are also not secret, so when the investments are done the information will be there for the US president to see. 

 

All areas are affected by you because global warming is a global effect. I know, judging by the name one would think the pollution made in the US only affected you guys, but it turns out that the word global actually refers to a worldwide phenomenon. 

I understand completly about global warming. Tons of things contribute to it including humans. My issue with this agreemenet is that it is essentially a handshake saying you will do something with no reprecussions for failing to do so. If the US took the money it is spending on the treaty and focused on reducing greenhouse gasses in the US, it would affect everyone. If the Chinese used the money they were were putting towards the agreement and used it to reduce green house gasses in its country it would affect the world etc. etc. The falacy here is saying that we need to give money to other countries because of global warming. If an Island sinks under sea level then help the people of said island relocate. I am tired of paying for other countries people out of my pocket when people in my own country are suffering. At what point do other countries start taking responsability for themselves? We dont need some new law or some new agreement with a fund to stop or slow global warming. 



The french President just ripped trump  a new one.



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And shepherds we shall be,

For Thee, my Lord, for Thee. Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, That our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command. So we shall flow a river forth to Thee And teeming with souls shall it ever be. In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritūs Sancti. -----The Boondock Saints